TRANSCRIPT: OSWALD’S LAST PHONE CALL PRESENTATION

From Dallas to Raleigh: Oswald and the Fingerprints of Intelligence

Grover Proctor’s Presentation on Oswald’s Last Phone Call, November 23, 1963

Lecture Given at the City of Allen, Texas, December 21, 2015

Read the Superb Questions and Answers at the End of the Lecture with Kennedy Researchers Jim Marrs and Grover Proctor

WATCH THE VIDEO

Downloadable PDF Transcript

 

Dr. Proctor: [00:00:15] What I’m going to do tonight is tell you a story because I found that that’s the best way to get people to understand what happened. And subtly, at the end, come to realize what the import of that really was. The story that we’re talking about takes place on November 23rd, not 22nd, November 23rd, 1963. In the evening, most of it is between the time ten and 11 p.m. Dallas time. I call the lecture that I give,  “From Dallas To Raleigh: (because of obvious things that are going to come up) Lee Oswald and the Fingerprints of Intelligence.” That may sound a little strange, but let me tell you where it came from.

US Senator Richard Schweiker was in charge of an investigation in the US Senate that had to do with the intelligence community and how they responded to the John Kennedy assassination. And Senator Schweiker went into it with both feet and really began to understand some of the complexities of the case and to realize that the answers were not nearly as simple as we had been told. And at one point he said this, quote, “We don’t know what happened, but we do know Oswald had intelligence connections. Everywhere you look with him, there are the fingerprints of intelligence.”

And as I’m sure you’ve already figured out now, we’re not talking about intelligence as in IQ, though he was not really the dumb kind of wasting that he’s projected to be. What we’re talking about is US intelligence. We’re talking about the United States intelligence community represented by but not limited to the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Office of Naval Intelligence, and others that find and provide information and analysis so that the leaders of our country can make the decisions that they need. He believed from everything that he saw that Oswald had “the fingerprints of intelligence all over him.” And notice he worded it that way. We’re going to come back to that phrase.

 [00:02:44] I think he did it on purpose. And I and I will let you know why after we understand what Oswald himself did while he was in jail. We cut to the to the situation where, as I said, it’s about 10:00 PM in Dallas and the switchboard room of the Dallas jail, which was on the fifth floor of the municipal building. There were two women working that night. The older and senior. One of them was a Mrs. Louise Swinney and a slightly younger lady who was going to come in and take her shifts starting at 11. Was a Mrs. Alveeta Treon. Now she’d been asked by the lady that was getting off at 11 if she could come in a little early because that lady wanted to leave early. So really Mrs. Treon got there around 1015 or so. She doesn’t know exactly what time she got there, but it left the two ladies there from for that 45 minute period from 1015 to 11 p.m.. And here’s what happened. Mrs. Treon sat down at one end of the switchboard. Mrs. Swinney was already seated at the other end. I’m sure they had things to say s=to each other and all the talk that people were doing about the assassination and how terrible it was for the Kennedy family and for the nation, and certainly for the city of Dallas and all the other things that they might have talked about. But Mrs. Swinney had one other thing to tell her. This is when she said that she had been told earlier in her shift. That at some point they discovered or they knew that Lee Oswald was going to want to make a telephone call, and that at that time two men would come down or go up, depending on where they were coming from to the fifth floor switchboard. They were to be admitted, put into a side room where they could monitor whatever call it was that Oswald wanted to make. And so the two ladies knew about that. Not too long after that, there was a knock on the door. The two men entered. Is this when she knew to accept? To expect them? Ushered them into the room, closed the door, and within a minute or two, the red light on the switchboard indicating a call coming in from the jail itself. Told them pretty much what they needed to know. Mrs. Swinney and Mrs. Treon knew. This is it. The story goes that the two of them literally, in their particular places on the switchboard, plugged in their headsets at exactly the same time. And it was Mrs. Tryon who first said, “Number, please.” But knowing that Mrs. Sweeney was the senior Superior in the hierarchy there and the switchboard and that she sensed that Mrs. Swinney wanted to handle the call, perhaps had been told how to handle the call, she demurred, but she stayed on the line.

Mrs. Treon stayed on the line and was able to hear everything that Lee Oswald was saying to Mrs. Swinney. He told Mrs. Swinney and therefore Mrs. Treon, who he wanted to talk to, who a collect call he wanted to make what area code, the name of the person and two telephone numbers. Is this when he takes the key off so that Oswald can’t hear her, but she’s still on the line and switches to the two men that are sitting in the equipment room? And she tells them everything that Oswald had just said. Mrs. Treon is sitting over there having heard all of it. She’s writing down all this information because she and her daughter, once they found out daughter was visiting her, she worked in the same building. Once they found out that there was going to be this connection with Lee Oswald. The daughter said, “If this happens, write this down and let’s keep it as a souvenir, because this is something we’re going to want to remember.” So that’s what Mrs. Treon was doing, wrote down everything that Lee Oswald said, and Mrs. Swinney repeated it to the two men in the next room Now. Mrs. Tryon couldn’t hear the response of the two men, but. After a few seconds, Mrs. Swinney said “Fine” or “Ok” or whatever, and disconnected the two men in the other room.

Dr. Proctor: [00:07:31] And Mrs. Treon would later say Mrs. Swinney was sitting there extremely nervous, shaking, obviously very agitated at what she was next supposed to do. And that was this. She opened the key back up to Oswald and said, “I’m sorry, sir. No one answered at that number.” Close the key. And the call was finished. She never attempted to make the call. And almost certainly it was not her idea not to do that.

The story continues that the two men came out of the room. Thanked them for their co-operation and left. Mrs. Swinney stayed on until her shift ended at 11 and left then or soon thereafter, and Mrs. Treon was left to consider all that had just happened in the context of everything that had happened in the last 36 hours in Dallas.

Oswald didn’t know when he was making this call that he had 12 hours left to live. Mrs. Treon would later say that she was absolutely dumbfounded at the way that had played itself out, but she had the little slip and she would keep that and take it with her and not actually do anything of significant value with it other than keep it for the family for another five years. Now let’s take a look at the slip that Mrs. Treon actually wrote.

The original slip stayed with the family of the Trojans when they moved to Springfield, Missouri, a couple of years after the assassination. And what has come down to us are

[00:09:26] Photocopies of photocopies of photocpies. And you know what happens even with the best of machines now, but certainly, with the really poor quality or lesser quality machines that they had back then, every time you made a photocopy, things got smudged and became less readable. So, I took one of those, the earliest copy that I could find of the of the slip and digitally remastered it and took out all of the garbage that was on it so that we can see it almost exactly the way Mrs. Treon wrote it. And let’s see the information that’s contained here.

Bottom left AC 919. Well, as Tom alluded in his introduction, I was reading a book in which this story was recounted in 1980, and the author, Anthony Summers, said, “And it is it is reported that Lee Oswald attempted to make a call to area Code 919.”

I was living in Hartford, Connecticut at the time and taken a job up there, and was on a train going into New York City for some business. And I was reading the book, and I got to area code 919, and I stopped, and I said, “That sounds familiar.” And a couple of seconds later, I hope it wasn’t much longer than that, I thought: “That’s my area code at my home.”  I just moved to Raleigh, North Carolina.

Upper left-hand corner “Collect call.”

Obviously, that was the only kind of long distance call that Oswald could have made because there was no way of paying for it and they were certainly for a prisoner. The city was not going to pay for it and then try to collect back from him. So it had to be a collect call.

First line says it came from the jail. Second line, from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Now, I’ll stop here for just a second and say, do you realize or do you understand why we call him Lee Harvey Oswald every time we refer to him? Well, that was his name.

Yeah, but my name is Grover Belmont, Proctor Jr. But nobody calls me that. Nobody refers to me as that. I was not introduced here tonight as your speaker, Grover Belmont. Proctor But think about it. It took me a little while to realize this.

The press got their information from the arrest sheets that were typed up on these old manual typewriters that they had 1963, where it has a space for the person’s first name, middle name, last name. And so that’s the information that was given out, and everybody followed it. And that’s why even today, you’ll hear these notorious criminals or people arrested for crimes listing all of their names when that’s not what they were called.

He was Lee Oswald. And I have made it a point in all of my lectures to refer to him as that, because that’s who he was and that makes him more real, and that makes the situation in Dallas, I think, more real.

To: Raleigh, North Carolina. And there it was. By the time I got around to finding this slip, there was my hometown.

The person called: John Hurt and two numbers over there on the right. You can read them. I don’t need to read them to you (919 834-7430 and 919 833-1253).

And then in the lower right over there: Da. and Ca. And those were the codes that Mrs. Tn wrote in to remind herself that day meant didn’t answer because that’s what Mrs. Sweeney had told Oswald. And Ca canceled “the call was canceled” and not put through. And she put Mrs. Swinney’s name down there because Mrs. Sweeney had been the one to do it. And that’s why that form looks like that.

Now. How do we know now about this? If it did not come to the attention of the Warren Commission and it didn’t. If Mrs. Tryon packed up this slip and carried it with her to Springfield, Missouri, and lived out the rest of her days there, which she did, how is it that we now are gathered here 52 years after the assassination, talking about this particular slip?

And that’s ACT TWO of our story.

When Mrs. Treon moved to Springfield, Missouri, she had been helped. She and her husband and family had been helped to move there by a close family friend who lived there in Springfield, and his name was Winston Smith. And there’s at least two people in this in the assassination law whose name was Winston Smith, but this is the other one. Winston Smith was a family friend, and he figures into this in one way.

One night in the middle of the winter, December, early January of December of 67 or January of 68, Mr. an Mrs. Treon had Winston Smith over there to their house for dinner. And during that dinner she said,” You know, you might be interested in something that happened to me.  I was witness for at the time of the Kennedy assassination.”

Dr. Proctor [00:14:58] He said,” Oh, sure, tell me.” And so she did. She told him everything that I just told you, maybe more. But that’s as much as I know about the issue. And he said all the polite and interested things that people say. And he went away. And he was, he was tangentially in law enforcement himself. He worked in the records area for the penitentiary there. And so he knew law enforcement people. And the more he got in thinking about it. He knew this was not information that should be just state and not considered.

So he called in late January of 68. He called Mrs. Treon and said, “I think I should tell the sheriff of GREENE County here. Mickey Owen I think I should tell him this story and see if he thinks something should be done”  She said, “Well, fine, that’s fine.”

He told Sheriff Owen. Owen said, “Yeah, I think maybe I should go and talk to her.” He Went and talked to Mrs. Treon. He discovered that she was not a flake. She was not after attention. She was not trying to cash in on this. She was not the kind of person that he felt would be fabricating this. She seemed like a normal person. In fact, those were the two words he used. He listened to the story and he said to her, “I think this is federal. This is the assassination of a president. This happened in another state.”

[00:16:25] He continued: “It really is not Green County. I think I should call the FBI office here in Springfield. I think they want to talk to you again.” She said. “That’s fine, too.”

FBI agents did show up. They interviewed her. She said that they were very interested in what she had to say, that it sounded like to her that they had never heard this story before, and it’s almost certain that they had not. She told them about the long distance or LD phone slip that she had filled out that evening, and they said we’d like to see it.

She showed it to them and they said, “We’d like to take this and make copies.” Beverly, is this sounding familiar? And so she said, “Well, sure, but I really do want it back because this has become a family thing.”

And so they agreed and they went away. And she didn’t hear from them for weeks and weeks and weeks. She finally called the sheriff and said, “I haven’t gotten the slip back.” And he was fortunately able to raise enough stink with the FBI that she actually got the slip back. But the most interesting aspect of this part of the story is that somebody during this time, 68, 69, we have no idea what the date is.

But somebody who had listened to Mrs. Treon’s story told in probably greater detail than I shared with you tonight sat down at a typewriter with legal-size paper and carbon paper. And typed out. An affidavit as if prepared by Mrs. Treon and as if giving every single thing that she had said about what happened that night.

This is just this is my retyping of it, because by now the original affidavit is gone and we only have copies of the carbons that were made and now they’re copies of copies. So you wouldn’t be able to really tell anything.

But I retype this and put this on my website so people can read everything that’s there. You’ll notice in the upper left hand corner, it’s written for the State of Missouri, County of Green. Well, the first thought was maybe the sheriff did that, but there’s no indication that he ever said that he did that and he never presented it to her for signing.

Well, then what about the FBI? They knew everything. I’m certain they had taken notes. But why would they have made it for County of Green? We don’t know. But the affidavit appeared. And it appeared very, very quickly.

And I want to show you just how quickly remember I said that in late January. Winston Smith called Mrs. Trojan and said, “I think the sheriff should come and talk to you.” And she said, “Yes, right.” If we were to believe Winston Smith and everything else seems to have been met with, with approval, with the truth Police. If we were to believe what he said a week after that. He was contacted by a journalist. Okay, fine. But here’s what I want you to imagine. He calls the sheriff. Let’s say he calls the sheriff on the exact same day that he called Mrs. Treon. And let’s say that the sheriff rushed out there that day, and let’s say that the next morning he called the FBI, and they rushed out there that day. So that’s three days of our week gone.

But by the time that seventh day had come around, a journalist called Winston Smith, which means he knew Winston Smith had told the story, wanting more information because all the journalists had right now was this affidavit and a copy of the long-distance phone slip. That journalist had sources somewhere that turn things around immediately.

The journalist was a man named Ian Calder. I mean, Calder, he was British, actually was Scottish, worked in the London bureau of the paper that he would ultimately work his career at. Then they brought him over to New York. He lived in New Jersey. He worked in their offices in New York, and he was the journalist that had found this out and was pressing for the story because he thought it would be a very good one for his newspaper.

Does anyone recognize the name Ian Calder? He, by the way, after becoming this reporter, worked his way up. And when he retired in the year 2000 from this newspaper, he retired as chairman and CEO of the entire corporation.

This is a man with a lot of gumption. And this is him and his newspaper. Now, there’s a very short portion of the story here that Ian Calder figures into. I’m going to I’m going to really boil it down, but but it’s it has importance beyond the Raleigh Call story.

Dr. Proctor: [00:22:03] So I want you to know about this story. There was a man by the name of Abraham Bolden. And Abraham Bolden, mong his other many positive qualities and accomplishments, President Kennedy had named him as the first African American Secret Service agent to work the White House detail. He was an extraordinary man. And when he was working in the Treasury, they said he closed more counterfeiting cases than anybody before him. He was brought over to the White House detail and he was working on the White House detail at the time of the assassination, though not in Dallas. He was in Chicago, which is where he was living.

And Abraham Bolden figures into this two ways. First of all, he gave a report that still exists on the night of the assassination. No, I’m sorry, on the night of Saturday, late Saturday night. Remember the time that the call came through the Raleigh call late Saturday night, a dispatch came through to the Chicago Secret Service office, and he assumed to all of them to research any information they might have about a man named Hurt or Heard. He didn’t have anything, didn’t report it. But the other aspect of Abraham Bolden that makes him a part of this is that. He made statements to people he worked with and people he knew that he would testify to the Warren Commission about the lax performance of the Secret Service up to and including the time of the assassination (including)

Dr. Proctor: [00:23:59] Agents being intoxicated at times that they were not supposed to be of using agency cars to travel with women to parties and all the things that actually we’ve been hearing about the Secret Service over the last little bit. He was going to tell people that. Well, he also said that he had evidence that at least one Secret Service agent had been at least peripherally involved with the planning or the outcome of the Kennedy assassination. And he was going to name the name.

Imagine the surprise of all of us conspiracy people to learn that shortly thereafter he was arrested on charges of soliciting a bribe from a counterfeiter that he was trying to put into jail. He was put into jail, and he was. You should read this for yourself. But he was exceptionally badly treated. His wife was threatened with weapons and followed. His children were trying to get him out and trying to get people to recognize that this was not a this was not a man that would take a bribe, but he was, in fact, convicted.

As part of the case to try to find out if Bolden was telling the truth about everything that he was saying, and also to see if Bolden’s assertion that there had been reports of a plan to assassinate the president earlier in Chicago were correct. A Freedom of Information Act request was made for various documents, and the person who filed that used the telephone slip from Mrs. Treon as evidence that there were shenanigans going on, that there were people involved that had not been brought in.

And that’s how the authors that have been talking about the Raleigh call found out about this slip and the very first book that it contained. It had gotten it from that Freedom of Information thing.

So I urge you, if you have an interestto , read Abraham Bolden’s book and he will in that book, he will reveal the things that he had to go through in order to try to get the truth out. I’ll stop here for just one second to say something that I was particularly eager to say has nothing to do with the Raleigh call, but it has to do with people like Abraham Bolden, who, as my grandfather used to say, has a dog in the hunt. People like me. I read things. I go and search out documents, I interview people, I put words together. I come here, talk about the words. I mean nothing. I mean, I may do something good, but my life is in regards to the Kennedy assassination is just because I have chosen that and it chose me. And I am doing the work to try to uncover the people like Abraham Bolden, whose lives were on the line, whose lives were were almost ruined.

And you’re in the presence of one of those people tonight in Beverly Oliver.

Speaker2: [00:27:18] And I want you to leave tonight knowing what a special person you have had in your presence tonight. Think about what she did. She lived through Jack Ruby, introducing her to Lee Oswald when the standard line was that the two had never met and never knew each other. She had witnessed 20 feet away the blowing off of the head of a president of the United States and was looking at it through a film camera. She had people coming to her to take her property away. She had people who were close to her that worked in the same places that she did, literally drop off the face of the earth that have never been heard from since. And their fate literally unknown. Living in fear of talking about what she went through and what she saw hiding. And then finally, the character that undoubtedly she was born with came out and she said, “I’m not going to do it anymore.” I want to know the truth and I’m going to live my life finding the truth because I was there and I was the one that was impacted by this. Grover Proctor wasn’t. I was a seventh grader in middle school, but she lived it and is is a beacon to us all today of people who are strong and courageous. And Beverly, I’m just honored to have met you tonight.

Speaker2: [00:28:51] So thank you. So that gets us up to the late seventies House Assassinations Committee. The Select Committee on Assassinations is formed, and there’s a John Kennedy assassination side, and there’s a martin Luther King assassination side. The John Kennedy assassination side was headed up by Chief Counsel Robert Blakey. You’ll hear about him again in just a minute. And they had a large staff and they had initially a lot of money in their budget. And initially the idea was we’ll get all of these ideas that have been floating around and we’ll flesh them out and we’ll see if there’s really anything to it.

Well, with that as their goal, a man at the at a private research area, the Assassinations Archive and Research Library, that’s what it’s called now at a different name, then went to the files and found the not the original of the affidavit, but the original carbon copy. And I know it was because I’ve handled part of it. I had actually had it in my hand thanks to them, and they photocopied it and they sent to the House Assassinations Committee.

And to their credit, they assigned a senior counsel and a staff to find out what was going on. And that’s how we’ve gotten most of the information that we have today was through their work. Now, I want to warn you, a year and a half later, when their final report came out from the House Assassinations Committee and the Kennedy side, there was not a mention of John Hurt or Alveeta Treon or Louise Swinney or Raleigh, North Carolina, at all.

Dr. Proctor: [00:30:44] But that doesn’t mean the staff wasn’t busy and that chief counsel or lead counsel for that group, a woman by the name of Surrel Brady, I understand an extraordinary attorney, did produce a lot of work and produce a 24 page report on it at the end. Never saw the light of day when I began to research it in 1980. That report was probably about a year and a half old. No one had ever seen it except the senior people. And so as part of my initial research, I contacted Robert Blakey and I said, “I want to know everything that you know.” And he sent me a copy of it. And I have. I have reproduced it. I’ve typed the entire 24 pages out, plus all of those footnotes, and it’s on my website. So now finally it’s published. But here’s where we go from here. They wanted to know who is the man that was being called. And here we get to:

ACT THREE: Where we’re going to where we’re going to really climax this thing and find out where we are today. Who was that John Hurt that was on that slip? And why were there two telephone numbers?

Dr. Proctor: [00:31:59] Well, a very, very, very, very good question. Two phone numbers. So they called Southern Bell Telephone Company, which was the regional bell in charge of North Carolina and other states at that time. And talked to a woman named Carolyn Raybon. And that name will always be in my brain because I can’t believe the answers that she gave to a congressional committee.

They gave her the two telephone numbers that had come on that slip, and she got back to them and said, “I’m sorry, but those numbers are unofficially unlisted They were unlisted in 1963. And since they were unlisted, that means that the party who owned them had requested that. And without a court order or a congressional subpoena, I can’t give you the names associated with it.”

So they had subpoena power. They got a subpoena. They sent it to her. She was very happy. And she told them that the first number was for a John D. Hurt and the second one was for a John W. Hurt, both living in Raleigh, and that’s all the information that they had.

Now. I thought. It’s really strange that both numbers would be unlisted because that was not done capriciously and by a lot of people at that time.

So I had an idea. I was in Hartford, Connecticut. Still, I call my parents living in Raleigh, North Carolina.

I said, “Would you do me a favor?” Sure. “Would you go to the public library? And would you get out the phone book for 1963 and would you look up the name Hurt and tell me what you see??

And there they were.

Dr. Proctor: [00:34:07] Maybe, maybe we’re dealing with a different timeline. It doesn’t run January to December. So I said, let’s go back a year or so, because maybe that’s the directory that was in effect at the time. Well, no, They’re there. Okay, let’s go two forward. Maybe that’s when they were. No, they’re there. And Southern Bel maintained to the very end that they were unlisted. I still haven’t figured that out. I’ve never found Carolyn Rayborn, and I’m sure when I do, she doesn’t want to talk to me (laughter).

The second name presented the House Assassinations Committee with very little problems because they decided basically to ignore it. In the entire 24-page report Surrel Brady wrote, she mentioned the second phone number exactly four times one to say that it was on the slip itself. Well, we knew that, noting that it was the one number of the two that Winston Smith had memorized when he saw the slip. Well, who cares about that? Third thing was that when they actually ended up talking to the first John Hurt, that he didn’t know the second John Hurt. Okay. Who cares about that? And let’s see, the fourth thing was that John Hurt, on Wake Forest Road did own that number.

Wow. I mean, that’s all they did. But a wonderful and prize-winning, award-winning journalist in North Carolina, in Raleigh and I happened to publish our Raleigh Call articles on the same day.

Now, he had a different slant from what I did, but he did something that none of the rest of us did. He found John W Hurt, who had been a 24-year-old auto mechanic working in a tire recapping business on that day. So it’s probably not who Lee Oswald was calling. Especially when they found out at the House Assassinations Committee who John D. Hurt was. And let me tell you who John D Hurt was.

First of all, thank you, Ancestry.com.

We have wonderful pictures that in this lower left hand corner, that’s, of course, John Hurt on the right and his sisters in the middle, Diantha and Ruby on the left.

So let’s get our let’s get our bearing here. On the evening of November 23rd, Lee Oswald supposedly al one nut with no connections to anybody doing this for his own reasons. He decides that he needs to call John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina.

John Hurt, who incidentally had been a special agent for the United States Army Counterintelligence Division.

Shades of Schweiker who didn’t even know that when he made the statement of Oswald having the fingerprints of intelligence all over him. Well, that seemed like it was almost either too good or too bad to be true. So they pursued it. As it turns out, there’s a very, very complicated man.

He had been in the in the Army counterintelligence during World War Two. He’d served both in Germany and in Japan as part of his work in Japan. He had uncovered a huge silver bullion cache that the Germans had sent over there as payment for them to keep them going in the war. That’s up. That was down to him and his work. He had gone into that after having graduated from University of Virginia with an undergraduate degree in law. But as he told me when I interviewed him, “I never practiced law.”

When his when his career with counterintelligence had ended in 1947, he was offered a commission to stay on as an officer and continue to work in counterintelligence. And he turned that down. And given the way his life went after that, it’s probably a good thing because starting in about the early fifties and certainly by the mid fifties, his physical, mental, psychological and just about every other kind of of health had deteriorated to the point that he could no longer hold a job. Psoriatic arthritis had completely taken over his limbs to the point that they had to amputate many of his fingers. He had.

Dr. Proctor [00:38:58] He had, let’s see…. Ah… the Veterans Administration had kept up with him. And when the House Assassinations Committee came knocking, this is what they had to say about him. “ VA contained his separation quality record, which identifies Hurt as having served as an investigator of accidents and sabotage. He attended an eight-week military intelligence training, school and war intelligence course.”

The file further documented a severe case of psoriatic arthritis, which hurt has been afflicted since 1942. By April 63, Hurt had been rated by the Veterans Administration as 100% disabled.

And in fact, the Social Security Administration had labeled him as completely and 100% disabled by 1955, which is when he held his last job and had to quit because he simply couldn’t couldn’t go on.

According to a report of an examination in November of 63, a Board of Examiners of the Veterans Administration. Now, this is interesting. November of 63. Hurt goes in for an examination and the VA determines that quote, “This veteran’s hands serve no more useful purpose than would amputation. In June and August, 64 fingers on both hands were amputated.”

Hurt’s medical history also included treatment for a psychiatric disorder and alcoholism. He was known for making crank calls to politicians, including the governor of North Carolina.

A very sad case.

By the time I got around to talking to him in 1980. I talked first to his wife. She answered the phone at the same number. And she wanted to know all about why I wanted… It was clear I was not the first journalist that had contacted them. And it was, of course, always about the Raleigh call. And I said that I was working for Spectator magazine, which was true. And in fact, our offices were five blocks up the same street they lived on.

I was trying to get her to get the idea that this is not National Enquirer calling. This is somebody who’s right here and your same city. And, you know, we know how to take care of our own and that sort of thing. And she said, “You’re a Spectator.” So that was that. And I say that not to put her down, but literally she was so rattled that she couldn’t concentrate on what I was saying. But she did finally put her husband on and he denied ever having received a call from Oswald, which comports with what Treon had said, nor having ever made one into the Dallas jail cell.

And we’ll talk about in just one second why that was of interest to them, because that was the explanation that came to be given as to why the phone slip was there, that a crank call came in and it was written up on a piece of paper that the crank call and they gave the information and then threw it in the wastebasket. And Mrs. Treon came along, got it out of the wastebasket, thought it was the call that had come in. And that’s why we have it.

But as we’ll see in just a minute, that can’t be the case.

John Hurt, a little bit of bio here. The State Bureau of Investigation was very interested in this man because of his attempts to get hold of government leaders. He was very upset that the governor didn’t come to his local precinct meeting one time. And so the governor sent out a couple of his aides to go to his house, talk to him, try it, because they were in the same party wanting to get him to understand that the governor was busy, but he really supported what he was doing. And basically Hurt, met them at the door, met them at the door and said, “Go away. And if you come back, I’ll you’ll be facing both barrels of my shotgun”

Hurt was not somebody that people were really confident had focus on reality. This last at the bottom down here on the right as manic depressive, paranoid and dangerous to society.

So. That’s the man that was called. So the question became, was the call incoming as in a crank call or outgoing?

And remember, let’s go back to the affidavit for just one last time. Mrs. Treon had never seen that affidavit. Clearly, it came from someone who knew her information, apparently not completely accurately, but they knew enough to type two and a half pages, legal size pages of what she had said.

Dr. Proctor: [00:43:35] So when the House Assassinations Committee deciding to pursue the Raleigh call, got in touch with Mrs. Treon, they said, well, you know, in your affidavit, you said… She said, “I never signed an affidavit. I’ve never seen an affidavit. I’ve never given an affidavit.”

And they said, well, we have it here. It wasn’t signed, but it has your name. She says, “I’ve never done it.”  So they sent her a copy again, A copy of a copy of a copy. And they said, “Would you please tell us what is correct and what is incorrect and for the things that are incorrect. Would you write in the in the margins and tell us what is correct?”

Well, in the original, someone had gotten the idea that Mrs. Treon had gone rooting around in the trashcan in the switchboard room after Mrs. Swinney left to get some information to write on that slip. And Mrs. Tryon wrote back that section, crossed it out and said, “I would never have gone to the trash can. I didn’t need to go to the trash can. I was listening to Oswald’s voice tell me the information that I wrote down there.”

Before that information became known to the public, all we had was the idea, “Well, maybe she did go to the trash can and maybe there was a possibility of an error.” And two or three really big time and well respected assassination researchers thought that that must have been the case because it really didn’t fit their particular pet theory otherwise.

But now we know that that’s not the case and that two women, not just one, heard Oswald give this information and attempt to make this call.

So I think we pretty much decided now that as Blakey did, having known about the corrections to the affidavit, Blakey and Surrel Brady and all the others of the House Assassinations Committee fell over their selves saying how much they believed that the call was real. It was – the direction was outgoing from the jail, that it was troubling and possibly sinister in its implications.

And and so now we know they were correct.

I think I had mentioned Anthony Summers and Robert Blakey. Summers is the book that I first found about area code 919. I called him and what he told me at that interview that I didn’t tell you before was he said, “You know, I’m sorry I put that in the book.” I said, Why? Thinking, “Oh, no. There goes my big story.” He said, “I’m sorry I put that in the book because, you know, the more I think about it, there’s no real way to substantiate it. And corroborated and it doesn’t sound right. And everything else in my book is just nail, nail, nail everything. Everything’s solid. But that’s the one thing.”

And I said, “Well, you know, I appreciate that. And I will certainly in the article that I write, I will certainly show your doubts.” And he thanked me and that was it.

Within a week, he had called me back, which was a shock in itself. He called me back and he says, “I’ve changed my mind.” He had been on an interview panel, I think on The Today Show with G. Robert Blakey, the Chief Counsel of the House Assassinations Committee. And as they were literally walking in the parking lot, he said, to get to their respective cars,  Summers mentioned to him about the Raleigh call, and says, “You know, I’m just sorry I put that in my book.” And Blakey, he said, “Why? That’s one of the most important things we discovered. We just couldn’t write about it because we didn’t know why Oswald did it. But we’re absolutely convinced that he tried to make the call and somebody blocked him. And it was to this John Hurt.”

And they stood and talked about it. And Blakey convinced Summers and Summers to this day – I saw him just last year at a conference in in D.C. – says, “Absolutely, you know, that’s Blakey and you were right.” And that’s the only time my name and Blakey’s has ever been put in the same sentence.

Dr. Proctor [00:47:26] But there you go. So we come now to the to the finality of it.

We know that Schweiker said that he had reason to believe that Oswald had the fingerprints of intelligence all over him. So what does it mean? Why would he have been calling someone who had been in intelligence in the past? What’s the connection?

There’s absolutely no connection that John David Hurt has any known activity related to the Kennedy assassination. Just simply none out there. He probably wouldn’t have physically been able to do it anyway.

Well, we called another man. We called a man. And I believe this is the next slide. Yes. We were told to call Victor Marchetti, who had been one of the chief analysts and ran agents in the Central Intelligence Agency who had left, had written a book called “The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence,” which was the first book in the United States to be subjected to pre-publication censorship. And we were told, if anybody knows what’s going on with why Oswald would have called hurt, he would know.

So we called him, we asked him and he says, “I know exactly what’s going on.” One of the things we found out about Victor Marchetti is he doesn’t doubt himself very much. “I know exactly what was going on.” He says, :I don’t know Oswald, I don’t know Hurt, but I know exactly what was going on.”

Dr. Proctor: [00:49:00] “Okay, please tell us”. He says, “It’s standard operating spycraft. If you’re trying to run an agent and you have a feeling that this agent may be doing something dangerous and may get caught or have trouble of some sort, the one thing you don’t want is to have that person calling you his handler directly. You don’t want that. So you create what is known as a cutout.”  And he says, “So the agent is given a name and a phone number and told if you get into trouble, call this person. He’ll know who you are. He’ll know to call me. And that way I’ll know you’re in trouble and we’ll come get you”.

And he (Marchetti) said, “That’s exactly what someone had done to Oswald.”

Now, the question remains at this point, was Oswald really working for American intelligence or was somebody trying to make him think that he was. And if I had to say one way or another, my guess would be that it’s more the latter.

We’ve seen no hard or even soft evidence that Oswald was hired by the CIA or any other intelligence group as part of the Kennedy assassination. But the other thing that Victor Marchetti said about Oswald was that, you know, the Office of Naval Intelligence in the late fifties ran an office in Nags Head, North Carolina, which, by the way, also had area code 919 at that time. And he said it was for finding disaffected young servicemen of the various services who were smart enough and might be the right type to be trained to defect to the Soviet Union. As for the purposes of serving the United States. And once their hope to be picked up as an agent of some intelligence over there, and that way we could use that person to give false information to the Soviets. Let’s remember, it was not called the Cold War for nothing.

And he said, “That’s exactly what Oswald must have done.”

And as it turns out, in the recent years, we’ve actually found two pieces of evidence to indicate that Oswald actually did that. The first one, researcher Mark Lane talked to a man who was a former Marine, had served with Oswald in California. One day Oswald went to meet with some of the top brass. Came back and Bucknell, the person who gave the information, said that Oswald told him that he was being sent to the Soviet Union on assignment by American intelligence and that he would return to the United States in 1961 – a hero.

Another one from a former CIA pilot, Tosh Plumley, testified in 2004 with the following statement. “When I later learned Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with the intelligence training matters first at Illusionary warfare training in Nags Head, North Carolina.”

Dr. Proctor: [00:52:14] So here we had some young man, if we want to take this picture that’s being presented (Lee Oswald), who, as far as we know, was a very happy Marine, given the opportunity to serve his country in a clandestine way. And he came back. He wasn’t picked up by Soviet intelligence, so he came back. He’s going around trying to find who he is and what he can do and gets caught up in something that he has no idea what the outcome is going to be.

And because there has been this little taste of cloak and dagger in his background, it would be very easy for someone who knew what he was doing to try to convince him that he was working for American intelligence.

A man by the name of Antonio Veciana was a Cuban anti-Castro refugee who had come to this country and formed an anti-Castro regiment of people who were willing to do whatever it took to try to get rid of Castro. And one day, literally a couple of weeks, as I remember, or a month before the assassination he had said to Congressional investigators that he saw the man that he would later recognize as Lee Oswald, talking to his own, Veciana’s, his own CIA contact, a man he knew by the false name of Maurice Bishop.

Dr. Proctor: [00:53:47] The congressional investigator tried literally to the investigator died to get him to admit he even brought them into the same room, try to get him to admit that this Maurice Bishop was a CIA Western Hemisphere Chief by the name of David Atlee Phillips.

But Bezzina never would do it. And the congressional investigator died with that being the one thing he felt he was never going to see.

His wife, the wife of the reporter of the investigator continued his work, maintained the relationship that the families had had with the Vecianas, and last year I was very fortunate, as were many other much better researchers than I am, including one I think is here tonight. Was there to hear Antonio Vezina finally get up and say or his son read his statement that: “These two people are the same person.”

Yet one more indication that Oswald, the lone nut who had no connections to anyone, was seen meeting and talking with a CIA analyst or agent at the time that the assassination was being planned. Do we know that’s what they were talking about? Absolutely not. But Oswald once again shows up with the fingerprints of intelligence.

Three books, if you want to look into it, are the ones that have most of the information about this. And very quickly, I’ll end by telling you about them. The very first one where I saw the phone slip for the very first time got Hurt to say, “My interest was from the standpoint of the Kennedys. In fact, I’d be inclined to take the same action Ruby took. I would have loved to have put a bullet in Oswald. I wish I could give you some leads, but I can’t because I don’t have the slightest idea how this came about.”

(Hurt’s) standard line until he died one year after I talked to him.

Anthony Summers book the way that it was published originally, the way he wished it had changed or left out and then came to accept. And that gives the information about the Uthe US Naval Intelligence and Nags Head.

And the extraordinary book by James Douglas. Which I am flattered that he he quoted from me in there. He said, is the situation grew more desperate. “On late Saturday night, Oswald tried to make a mysterious long distance phone call to Raleigh, North Carolina. Osawald was trying to call a John Hurt. The House Select Committee on Assassinations’ lawyer Surrel Brady, who was in charge of investigating the wrong call described the fact that John David Hurt had served in U.S. Counterintelligence as provocative.

And then this comes from Surrel Brady’s own report, where she indicates, as they would do in every aspect of their work, the veracity that they felt for Mrs. Tryon and what she had to say.

Surrel Brady report: [00:56:58] “The allegation that Oswald was calling John David heard is disturbing because the committee has found no evidence that Mrs. Tryon had any motive to invent the story, especially with such precise details as the actual phone number listed to John Hurt.”

The CONCLUSION

So there he is, probably the most enigmatic man of the 20th century in terms of what we know and what we don’t know about him. Lee Oswald.

But the Raleigh call stands is that one little slice of things that had that phone slip not existed or been lost in the move or the sheriff had decided, no, it’s not really all that interesting or any of one of a number of different things that could have happened that would have kept us from knowing about it.

Does it prove anything about who actually killed John Kennedy? 

No, but it certainly gives us a provocative look, to use their word, about the man who was put in the frame, who said he was a patsy.

And if he was a lone gunman, which I personally doubt, but many people that are very intelligent and whom I respect do believe that have a very, very, very hard time understanding the facts as presented here related to their vision of what happened.

And I think that the more we look into what Schweiker told us back in the seventies about Oswald’s fingerprints of intelligence, the closer we’ll get to finding out what actually happened on that day. Thank you very much. (APPLAUSE)

A Q&A  Begins with GROVER PROCTOR and JIM MARRS

MODERATOR: [00:58:35] I’ve got a surprise for you tonight. In addition to Dr. Proctor, we have one of the finest Kennedy assassination historians ever. I think he might have beaten you in terms of time and dollars he spent. But, Jim Marrs, would you come to the stage? I’m going to ask the first question and I’m gonna let Jim ask the second question.

Question: rom what I read in your research, the second Oswald called Hurt, he was a dead man. Can you comment on that?

Dr. Proctor: [00:59:17] Possibly, but since no one was talking about it, it’s hard to know. Obviously, the two men that were in there in the closet who kept the call from having been made were probably the only two people that could have spread the word like that to cause him to be killed. I think it may have been one of the dominoes in the chain, but it probably wasn’t the only one.

Moderator: [00:59:42] I want to give you a chance to ask questions. Comments? As far as test.

Jim Marrs: [00:59:45] Well, all I like to say is that I’ve been at this for 52 years now. I was a journalism major at the University of North Texas in 1963, and when I heard that there’d been a shooting in the motorcade, I turned on my little black and white TV. And I know I was watching TV for, I don’t know, 15, 20 minutes before Walter Cronkite came on and said, you know, with a sniff that the president is dead at 1:00. So I’ve been paying attention to this assassination since about ten or 15 minutes after it happened. I also had been in Ruby’s Club. I knew about Dallas and partied around in there as a college kid. I knew who was running Dallas. I knew about the Citizens Charter Commission. I knew about Earl Campbell, who was the mayor of Dallas at that time, and whose brother Charles Campbell had been fired as a deputy director of the CIA by President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

And anyway, I have really tracked this story as a journalist for, as I said, for 52 years. And Mr. Proctor, I want to tell you what a wonderful piece of investigation that you have done. This is the kind of in-depth and meticulous investigation that should have been done about the assassination of our president. But it was not. In fact, it was the most shoddy, slipshod thing right from the autopsy all the way through these bungled investigations. What I want to tell you is there weren’t just fingerprints of intelligence work around Lee Harvey Oswald. There are huge handprints. Let me just hit a few high points.

 

Number one, the House Assassinations Committee determined that there was a201 file within the CIA, which they had denied previously. This is an employee file. Now, they tried to brush that off and say, well, yeah, yeah, we finally found that. But there’s only a few newspaper clippings in it, nothing of any real importance. And yet four or five people, including Vincent Marchetti and other former CIA people, said if there’s a201 file, he worked for the CIA. John Newman is a very, very credible and honored military historian who wrote a whole book called Oswald and the CIA. And what he determined and proved through internal CIA message traffic, you know, all the little routing numbers in the to who’s and the from whose is that? And this was his conclusion. Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, was actively being used by the CIA prior to the assassination.

Now, the key question there is and and this is what Mr. Brock brought up, was he being used and unwittingly or did he know he was being used? And I submit that he knew exactly what he was doing. The best of my knowledge, I could go on and on, but I know it’s been a long night, y’all. Y’all don’t want to sit here all night. So Lee Oswald is a young man, was very patriotic. His favorite TV show was I Led three Lives for the FBI.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:02:51] The story of Herbert Philbrick, who posed as a communist but was actually working for the FBI was a big show in the fifties. I remember watching that as a kid, and I thought so too. I thought, Boy, that’d be cool. You know, this is an early day. James Bond, when he was 16, he enlisted in the Marines, got in the Marines for a short period of time, and then they found out he was under age, so they kicked him back out. So according to his mother, who I spent many hours with, Marguerite over in Fort Worth, living near Stripling High Junior High School, she said that for the next year, Lee studiously studied the Marine Corps manual, and by the next year he’s able to go in and join the Marines. Now, while he’s in the Marines, he goes through a certain amount of training and then apparently he’s picked up by the Office of Naval Intelligence. The Marines, as you probably know, is a branch of the Navy. Then they ended up sending him to Japan, where he worked as a radar operator handling flights of the then super secret U-2 spy plane. And he had a top secret security clearance. Now, you don’t let scumbags, you know, have your top secret security clearance. And then also, while he was there, he was known to frequent a place called the Queen B, which was a honky tonk there in Tokyo. But it was mostly a hangout for officers and for the pilots of the U-2s.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:04:16] And it was a very expensive club. You know, at night there, it cost you at least $100 and $100 in 1960. In 1959, 60 was a lot of money. And we know, according to the records that he was sending most of his paychecks home to his mother to support her. So where did he get the money to hang out at these places? He also told his roommates at that time that he was in contact with communist agents. So he was already working in intelligence. And then he goes to Nags Head for this illusionary warfare training where they not only were grooming only people to go into Russia and try to be double agents, they were also dealing with by 1959, the Castro anti Castro people and trying to drum up support against Castro and Mr. Proctor. Just last night I was on the phone with Tosh Plumley and he reiterated that, yes, he met Oswald there at this intelligence training at Nags Head. Now, as far as the story of John DeHart, he said that he knew John DeHart, that he was associated with the training at Nags Head, along with Tracy Barnes, CIA and and Howard Hunt, who was also connected to the anti-Castro Cubans and also there at Nags Head. Now, this gets into the war against Castro, which, you know, we actually were supplying. In fact, Tosh Plumley at the ripe old age of 17, actually was under age. But he got into the military.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:05:47] They trained him as a pilot. He was flying with the 49th Armored Division with its its HQ in Dallas. And initially he was flying arms and ammunition to Castro. And this is true, we don’t remember this much. But before Castro won in Cuba, he was the big hero. He was in Life magazine and he was fighting the evil dictator, Batista. And I remember when I was in high school in the fifties, you know, has young kids, young boys do, We thought, hey, why don’t we skip school and go down to Cuba and fight with Castro against the evil dictator, Batista? And it was only after Castro took over and he threw the Mafia off the island, he nationalized the United Fruit, who, by the way, the lawyer was. Allen Dulles was one of the top lawyers for United Fruit that all of a sudden corporate America got mad at him and decided he must be a communist. And we you know, we’ve had that problem with Cuba ever since. So then we turned against him. And so then now Tosh Plumley has the CIA contract pilot, was flying arms and ammunition to the Bay of Pigs invasion to the anti-Castro Cubans in Cuba. And I could go on and on. He even flew a reconnaissance mission just prior to the Bay of Pigs. By the way, I just want to mention that the Bay of Pigs was codename Operation Zapata. And the reason I mentioned that is because George Herbert Walker Bush’s oil company was Zapata drilling and the two ships that were damaged hauling supplies to the Bay of Pigs invasion with the Houston and the Barbara and the day after the assassination.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:07:33] In fact, there is an FBI report talking about the reaction of the anti-Castro Cubans to the Kennedy assassination. And they said this information was provided by Mr. George Bush of the CIA. And if you and I don’t know about you people, but I remember when our unelected president, Gerald Ford, named George Bush a Texas oil man to head the CIA. I went, what? Where do they go? Get some Texas oil man to head our top intelligence agency? So I did a little digging. I found out that, number one, his dad, Prescott Bush, as a very powerful senator from Connecticut, was very critical in helping to form the CIA. And then we see this idea that, again, some of the people flying arms and ammunition for the Bay of Pigs said they were using oil companies as fronts, and one of them was Zapata drilling of Midland Odessa. George Herbert Walker Bush is oil company. So we can see this thread going all the way through there. Quickly, another couple of items about Oswald. When he was arrested, he had on his person a little small mini miniature camera, generally known as a spy camera. The FBI came down to the Dallas police and talked to the two detectives who had discovered this among his belongings and tried to get them to change their report, to read that this was a mini light meter, but they wouldn’t do it.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:08:55] And they said, we know a camera when we see one, so they wouldn’t change it. Why? The problem with the camera? Well, because our old Goltz, my counterpart, reporter for the Dallas Morning News, did a great job investigating and found out that Oswald’s camera has a five digit serial number. And when he checked with Knox Corporation, they said that all the cameras commercially available in the United States at that time carried a six digit serial number. So in other words, he got the spy camera somehow other than commercially buying it at a store. You got the 201 file, you got the camera he wrote while he was working at Jagger Stovall in Dallas, He mentioned to one of his friends, if you knew anything about micro dots, most of y’all probably don’t know about micro dots. But microdot is a spy technique where you take documents and you can reduce it down to the point of a little bitty dot. Like a period on the end of a sentence. You can stick it in a book. And that’s how Pi spies pass information back and forth. How does he know about all that? But I guess the clincher is, is that, like I said, I spent a long time with his mother and his mother from the very day of the assassination until the day she died and on multiple occasions told me my son worked for the United States government.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:10:11] She knew that she knew it. But of course, at the time that just sounded so crazy that it was really easy to say, Well, she’s just crazy. She’s just crazy. Don’t pay any attention to her. So there we go. Oswald was, as John Newman found out, was being used operationally by the CIA. Now, once you understand that the top levels of the United States government were involved in this assassination, then I hope everything else starts to become clear. The botched autopsy, the controversy over the medical evidence, the duplicate documents that have been found in the files, the controversies, the the charges and countercharges, claims and counterclaims claims. Because let me tell you, folks, here’s what it was. John J. Mccloy, the very powerful New York banker who sat on the Warren Commission and his protege was Allen Dulles. And these two men pretty well ran the Warren Commission and John J. Mccloy, early in the investigation of the Warren Commission, stated, and it’s there in the record, he said it was of the utmost importance that we convince the world that the United States is not just a banana republic where the government can be changed by conspiracy. But I’m sorry to tell you, folks, I hate to bust your bubble, but we’re just a banana republic. And our government was changed in 1963. And as we all can look back now and see, not for the better. And I’m sorry to have taken up so much of your time.

Moderator. : [01:11:40] Oh, okay. Sure. Oh. And why in the world did this Raleigh call be neglected for so many years? Was it lack of a good investigation or they didn’t care or they didn’t didn’t want us to know?

Dr. Proctor: [01:12:01] Well, my sense is that we did. I mean, that’s what I was doing in 1980. Did anybody really want to hear about it? Well, apparently not, because the House Assassinations Committee had just finished a year and a half’s worth of research. And I’m finding more and more as they as they slowly trickle out. The declassified documents from the House Assassinations Committee in the National Archives, I see more and more of what they did and who they talk to and how they got their information. But you can look high and low and even in every microdot you can find in the final report of the House Assassinations Committee on the Kennedy side, and you won’t hear or find the name John Hurt or Alveda Tree or anybody. And so we tried and they tried, but because they felt it was just unanswerable, rather than saying that, they just let it go.

Jim Marrs: [01:12:54] Let me add one quick thing. Number one, I’ve already backed up what Mr. Proctor said about Tosh Plumley, because like I said, I talked to him last night and he still says the same thing about meeting Oswald at Nags Head, but also in about in the early nineties I had a driving trip to Florida with Tosh and we drove all around. Oh, that was something else. He even took me to Alpha 66 headquarters in Miami, and I was a little bit anxious because, I mean, these guys, you know, they’re key. As soon as look at you. And they were rough. Tough. Number one, they greeted him, Tosh, like an old buddy. The older guys did. Now, the younger guys are going like. Who are you?  But the old guys are going, Oh, yeah. So, see, they remembered him from the time he was flying arms and ammunition for the CIA. But what I wanted to say was I actually met Vinciana. Jonah, and he made me. He. He said, this is off the record. So he got me to promise that I wouldn’t say anything. But privately he told me, “Yes, it’s Maurice Bishop.”

Moderator: [01:14:01] Yeah. And I should say not just because he said a very nice thing about my work, But I would say if you have not read CROSSFIRE, march out of here and find it. And if you can’t find it, demand it, because this is one of the key documents that has come through with the researchers. And you need to know about what this man has to say.

Jim Marsh: Thank you, Beverly.

Moderator: [01:14:23] Tell us who. I’m going to take some questions from the audience. But tell us one last thing. Tell us who Tosh was flying to Dallas the day of the assassination.

Jim Marrs: [01:14:34] This is another wild story. But like I said, he took me to Florida. We went to this place. They were they were these contract pilots for the CIA. And keep in mind, I doubt you’d ever find a employment farm with the CIA for Tosh Plumlee. They just don’t do it like that. And like Oswald Tosh, these are called assets and they have cutouts and they have front companies, They have all kinds of ways of messing it up. And then but I also want to add quickly one thing, you’ve got people like Tosh, you got people who have tried to speak out, you’ve got Beverly, you’ve got all these people. Now they say one thing, the government says something else. Do we really trust the government? Let’s think about it. Light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam. Read my lips. No new taxes. I’m not a crook. Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I’m sorry, folks, I size is contained. Right? Right. Oh, how about this one? No boots on the ground in Syria. Okay, See, I can’t. I don’t get it. If I was President Obama and I sent troops into Syria after saying that, I would’ve ordered them to take off their boots. But I’m sorry to tell you, but the federal government of the United States, if that was an individual, none of you, none of them had me, we wouldn’t have anything to do with them because they are a convicted congenital liar.

Moderator: [01:16:01] Well, tell us who he was flying into Dallas that day.

Jim Marrs: [01:16:03] Och, Tosh took me to Loxahatchee, Florida, where the flight originated. And this was a wild story. He said that they were would warehouse in this county work farm, prison prison there in Florida and that they would shower or clean up, shave, rest, sleep and then get up and go out, get an airplane, take off and do more missions for the CIA. That sounds incredible. Well, he took me there. Sure enough, it was closed up at the time I got there. But here’s the here’s the little prison. Here’s the airstrip right beside it. And in fact, he gave me the name of one of the wardens there at the prison, and I managed to get hold of him. And I said, Is it true that you all had some federal prisoners? And he said, Yeah. He said, Yeah, we did. We had a contract. The county had a contract with the federal government to have some prisoners there. He says, You know, it’s kind of funny. They kind of came and went. So he verified all of this. Now what Tom is talking about is, is according to Tosh, he was ordered to fly a mission. They took off from Loxahatchee, they went to New Orleans, they landed. And in New Orleans they picked up some people, one of whom he recognized as a Colonel Ralston, because he had flown him around the Caribbean and he was part of Jim Wave the the secret war against Castro.

Jim Marrs: [01:17:19] But in later years, he was shocked and amazed to find out that Colonel Ralston was none other than Mafia chief Johnny Roselli. And he flew Roselli into Dallas the morning of the assassination. They were to land at Redbird Airport. But for those of you who are around here at the time, you realize that morning it was storming, it was rainy or very overcast. And so Redbird was socked in. So they landed in Garland instead. And he said that’s where Johnny Roselli got out. And he also said that he later they flew to Redbird as the day cleared up and that the pilot, Rojas, said, “Hey, let’s go down to do the downtown and watch what happens.” He says, okay. So he went with them. They were standing on the south side of Dealey Plaza. He said that he was told they were with an abort team, a team that was sent into Dallas to try to stop an assassination attempt. But while they were standing there, they heard the shots go off. They saw them the presidential limousine streak off, and they realized something very wrong had happened. And so they turned around and ran off and left. But according to Tosh, there were multiple gunshots and it was an ambush.

Moderator: [01:18:36] Questions from the audience. I’m going to work this way. Let me work front and backwards. That way, I don’t have to walk so much.

Question: [01:18:49] I read somewhere that. Maybe LBJ had something to do with it. What do you guys think?

Jim Marrs: [01:18:56] You want to take that? Shoot him (pointing at Dr. Proctor)

Dr. Proctor: [01:19:02] I know I’m in the state that gave rise to Lyndon Johnson and a lot of people who really admire him. He’s also the only president I ever shook hands with. I was very young at the time, and he was very tall at the time. But I met him at a Democratic rally in Raleigh.

The evidence. This is me speaking. This is my opinion. The evidence to me that he was involved in creating the conspiracy is thin. I’ve read books where people have said that. I know that there were meetings of all these business tycoons and that sort of thing, but they probably would be meeting anyway. Hard evidence I don’t see.

In terms of setting up the Warren Commission and giving them their target to basically convict the lone nut. I think it was absolutely complicit. I think that’s how he got Warren to agree to do the chairmanship of the commission in the first place. But right in the middle is the gray area, and that is, if he didn’t actually help plan the assassination, did he know about it ahead of time? And I part ways with a good number of people that I know in saying I believe he did. I believe there’s more than enough information. And I’ve talked to his former mistress, who I’m sure you’ve spent a lot of time, Madeleine, a lot. She is absolutely convinced because of comments that he made to her about “he wasn’t going to have to worry about those damn Kennedys anymore.”

Jim Marrs: [01:20:29] That’s true. I will be the first to admit that I don’t believe we’re ever going to come up with hard evidence to convict Johnson of planning or even orchestrating the assassination.

Although, like Mr. Proctor, my personal opinion is I think he had to know something, because, number one, common sense tell you, you don’t kill the president of the United States unless you’re assured that his successor isn’t going to come after you.

But I’ll also say this: In Texas, we have executed people as accessories after the fact. Now, this is a legal term. And in these cases of murder, it shows the facts of the case show that they didn’t kill anybody, but they knew about it. They hid the gun, they drove dhe car, they helped cover up the crime. And in Texas, in fact, actually, in our entire legal system, if you’re an accessory after the fact, you’re considered as guilty as the person that pulled the trigger. So I want to tell you all with it unequivocally that the two men who are absolutely guilty as accessories after the fact in the Kennedy assassination are J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson.

Moderator: [01:21:33] Next question.

Audience Member: Uh, Jim, this is not a question. I just read your book. Population Control. About two months ago. And I wish everybody in here would get a copy of it and read it. It’s fantastic.

Jim Marrs: [01:21:51] Well, thank you very much. I wish they would, too, because the Kennedy assassination is one thing, and I’ve written about a number of conspiracies and a number of books on various topics. Some of you might really like my arise of the Fourth Reich, but what this gentleman is talking about is in my latest book, Population Control, the the the subject line says How corporate owners are killing us. And you need to read it to find out what they’re putting in your food, your water, your air that are toxic, that are dangerous. And if you have any concern about your own health and the health of your loved ones, you really need to find out what they’re doing to you.

Audience Member: [01:22:32] The two men in the switchboard room at the Dallas Police Department, were they federal or local officers?

Dr. Proctor: [01:22:39] Well, we don’t know. We don’t have any idea. Mrs. Sweeny said she thought that they were not homicide people because she knew all the people in the homicide department and they were dressed in suits, not in uniforms. We don’t know how they introduced themselves to her, probably the Secret Service or FBI. But that’s just alphabet soup for some people. And actually, Mrs. Treon never reports having learned who they were. So it’s not in her affidavit.

Audience Member: [01:23:06] What I find interesting is nobody in all the research I’ve looked at, no one’s acknowledged who their names were. Nobody’s acknowledged their existence. Nobody’s ever acknowledged that they were actually there. Yeah, Yeah, except. Except Mrs. Swinney and Mrs. Treon.

Dr. Proctor: [01:23:22] Captain Will Fritz was asked by the House Assassination Committee in a document I literally have just found at the National Archives. He was asked, did he order those two people to go down or up and monitor the call? And he says, “Well, I don’t remember, but it’s possible I did.” And so we’ll take that as a non-denial denial.

And let me just say about the affidavit, I’m really that that, to me, is a cornerstone in this little small thing. In the larger scheme of things, it’s maybe not that important, but in this one small area, the affidavit is key. So what I have done on my website and I just I don’t make any money off this so you can go there and all that. But on that website I have reproduced the contents of every single document that I have found in the National Archives. And included in that is the affidavit as it was originally written, and then with her, Mrs. Trojan’s corrections and additions. So you can see in one place exactly where the differences were. And I commend that to you because it really is interesting.

http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

Jim Marrs [01:24:26] Can I add something? Let me quickly add here something else you all need to know is that at the time of the assassination, there were no federal laws about assassination of the president of the United States. This technically, legally was a Texas homicide. And yet against the law, they cursing, showing, displaying weapons illegally, took Kennedy’s body, whisk it out of Parkland Hospital, put it on Air Force One, and whisk it up to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where they had a very, very incomplete and atrocious autopsy. And what most people don’t realise, too, is that that very night on orders of Cliff Carter, Lyndon Johnson’s right hand man, they pressured the Dallas police into turning over all of their evidence in the case to the FBI, and they hauled it out about midnight. And so the whole next day, all day Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day Monday, the FBI had sold proprietorship over all of the evidence in the case, much to the chagrin of Captain Will Fritz, who was the homicide captain in Dallas, who legally was in charge of this case. And he complained. He said, “How can I investigate this case if you take all my evidence away?: And by the way, on Saturday, the 23rd of November, in a document signed by J.A. Hoover himself, it said there were no usable fingerprints found on the rifle, the clip of the rifle or even the inner parts of the rifle.

On Sunday, that rifle was sent back to Dallas. And on Monday morning, FBI agents Harrison and Drane carried it to Miller Funeral Home in Fort Worth, where they were preparing Oswald’s body for burial. The funeral home director was Paul Rudy, who became a very good friend of mine, as I was the Fort Worth Star-Telegram police reporter. And at that time they had the the ambulance contract. And so all the crimes and the knifings and shootings, I had to deal a lot with Grady. He told me back then and he passed away a couple of years ago. But right up to this current day, he has stated publicly that he was there when the FBI put Oswald’s dead hand on the rifle. And it was that evening that Henry Wade announced to the media, Have I mentioned we found his fingerprints on the rifle. Now, I ask you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you have convicted somebody on that?

Audience Member: [01:26:52] Yes. Who do you think, in fact, orchestrated the assassination? And do you think that we will ever find out the truth?

Dr. Proctor: [01:27:04] I’m as interested to hear what Jim has to say as you are. But let me just say very quickly, those are the two most asked questions that I get and probably any of the researchers get. The first one, I don’t speculate anymore. Mark Lane told me that a long time ago, He says, because even if you say, “Well, I think and this is just an opinion, they’ll go away and say, Well, Grover said to us and so,” and I found that that’s actually the case, so I won’t do that.

But the second question I find a lot more interesting Will we ever find the answer? And my sense is not ever having written a book, I can say this. Who’s to say we don’t already know? Who’s to say that somebody’s one of those people like Jim who have written these incredibly wonderful books, exhaustive and very thorough, hasn’t asked the right questions, interviewed the right people, come to the right conclusions, and written it up in a way that is completely or 95% correct.

Well, how would we ever know?

Because it sits in this library of Kennedy books that stretches probably all the way around this room and beyond. And the press has abrogated their responsibility for deciding, you know, giving their estimates about the veracity of this one and the scholarship of that one and the, you know, the terrible writing of this one and all that. Plus, they have abrogated their responsibility for doing their research.

It was the press, let’s not forget, that broke Watergate. They have decided not to do this in the Kennedy assassination. And I don’t know why.

Jim Marrs: [01:28:33] And I concur. And like I said, I’ve been a journalist for 50 years. I dedicated myself to being a journalist in the late fifties, been and ever since. And I’m here to tell you openly, I’m ashamed of my profession because there’s so much information out there that has not been presented to the public.

Why is that? There’s various reasons. A lot of it’s inertia. A lot of it’s just ineptitude, a lot of it’s laziness.

But then there’s also, as was determined through the Church Committee and other congressional committees, there has been an infiltration of the major news media in this country by the CIA and by other NSA and by other government alphabet agencies.

It’s really terrible. Now, Mr. Proctor is absolutely correct. It doesn’t matter what we say, somebody’s going to say, “Well, he said this,” you know, and I respect him for that

I’m just dumb enough and I’m tired enough of this whole thing. I’m going to tell you what I think happened. Okay. This thing is multi leveled. All right?

I think at the very top, you’re going to find the Rockefellers, you’re going to find the Rothschilds, you’re going to find the international banking families. You’ll never be able to reach them.

David Rockefeller was publishing full page ads in The New York Times blasting Kennedy’s economic policies. So he obviously wanted him out of there. And these bankers are the ones that really run the country. Now, below them, you find Allen Dulles and you find McCord of the CIA. Helms and these guys and they all let’s face it, they represent Wall Street. And when Wall Street decided that Kennedy was a threat and Kennedy wasn’t doing right and we could go through the whole list, he was not going to send combat troops to Vietnam. No Vietnam War. He was trying to seek reimbursement with Castro, something that they didn’t want. He had negotiated with the Soviets and ending the missile crisis instead of going to war, which they wanted to do. He was threatening to take away the oil depletion allowance to the Texas oil men. He was trying to remove the power of the Federal Reserve in the summer of 63, issued $4.2 billion in silver-backed red ink, $5 notes – United States notes – not Federal Reserve notes. This is money we don’t have to pay interest on.

That’s very critical. In fact, the very first assassination attempt in US history was against Andrew Jackson. What was he doing? He did away with the International Bankers First National Bank of America.

So he (Kennedy) and angered all these people. Now, once that once that consensus was reached at that level that something had to be done about Kennedy, then it came down to, I think, Operation Mongoose. This was the secret war against Castro, headed by General Edward Lansdale, who had a big record. In fact, there was a book about him in a movie called The Ugly American. He was proficient at assassinating foreign leaders, and overthrowing governments. So. Well, we had a deal with Khrushchev over Castro, and he was proficient. They had everything. They had organized crime figures. They had anti-Castro Cubans, they had CIA people. And they’re all mixed up in there working against Castro.

And I think what happened was they simply sent their professional mercenary teams to Dallas. And then now, once you understand that this was not a low-level plot, this was a high level plot, then you understand that they have guided the investigation and the pronouncements ever since.

This was a palace revolt, a coup d’état.

Audience Member: [01:32:18] Jim, I just want to say thank you again so much for being here. You’re the very, very best that I know of on the subject of JFK. Well, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, but I mean, Jim’s been doing it longer and we correspond back and forth. But would you share with us, as we’ve discussed by email, when Sarah Hughes, Judge Hughes came upon Air Force One and first approached LBJ, she apologized for not having something with her. Would you share that, please?

Jim Marrs: [01:32:46] Well, I’m going to share this with you, but understand this as an anecdote. I’m sure Mr. Proctor would say you probably shouldn’t even say that if you can’t prove it, and I can’t really prove it. But years ago, I met a deputy sheriff, a former deputy sheriff of Dallas, who said he was on Air Force One. And we all know that that, number one, when Kennedy was pronounced dead, then by the Constitution, automatically Johnson became president.

This thing about swearing in, that’s a formality. He could have done that any time. But he insisted that they stay in Dallas until they could have this formal swearing in. And he’d said at the time that he had been told to do that by then Attorney General Robert Kennedy, Jack’s brother.

Later, Robert Kennedy, said he never told him any such thing. So there we caught Johnson, apparently in a misstatement, if not an outright lie. But according to (Shocking!) Oh, yeah, really? So according to this deputy Sheriff, Sarah Hughes finally showed up at Air Force One and said, Mr. President, speaking to Johnson, said, I am so sorry that I have taken so long. She said, but I just could not find a copy of the swearing-in ceremony. And he said, Johnson, look around at everybody gathered there in the plane. He said, “If any of you speak of this, I’ll call you a liar.” And he reached in his pocket and pulled out a copy of the swearing-in ceremony. I that’s just an anecdote, but I think it smacks of truth.

Audience Member: [01:34:17] My question is about. Charles Harrelson, who shot the judge down in San Antonio. I’d understood that he was arrested with several other fellows. On the railroad track behind the grassy knoll. Can you? Yeah.

Jim Marrs: [01:34:32] There were three what they call bums or hobos or whatever you want to call them, that were actually the the guy, the railroad tower operator saw a train pulling out right after the assassination had happened and had seen three men crawl into one of the boxcars. So he called the police and they had the train stopped and they went and rousted these three guys out of the boxcar and then marched them back through Dealey Plaza, where they were photographed by news photographers, took them to the sheriff’s office. And for years, there was no record of who they were.

Now, in the House Assassinations Committee came along. All of a sudden, these three arrest reports written in the same hand as though the same person had scribbled out these things, suddenly popped up and they were these three guys. And and they contacted them and they said, Oh, yeah. But a lot of the serious researchers doubt that these guys were really the three tramps.

The Tall Tramp bears a striking resemblance to Charles Harrelson. And Harrelson was a young guy at the time, 23 or 24, I think, and he was connected to the Dallas underworld. In fact, his mentor ended up being a -uh – a -uh – the bride grooms for one of Dallas top organized crime guys. So he was connected at that time.

And it is true that when he was finally caught and arrested for the murder of Judge John Wood in San Antonio, a murder for hire, by the way, that he held off the police for several hours, it’s almost sounds like a Saturday Night Live stunt. He pointed a gun to his own head and said, you know, don’t move or I’ll shoot. And he held off cops for a long time. And then he said he was high on cocaine. And at that time, he said, “I’ll clear up the John Wood assassination and also the Kennedy assassination.”

And then while he was being held in jail in Dallas County jail, one of the Dallas reporters went and interviewed him and he said, “Well, listen, I can’t talk right now because my jail cell is bugged,” which turns out to be true a few months later that it came out that, yes, they had tapped his jail cell. He said, “But when I get out of here, he said, I’ll give you the biggest story you ever had. November 22nd, 1963. You remember that?” So he gave a lot of indications that he knew something about the assassination of President John F Kennedy, But of course, he died in prison. But it’s interesting that his son, Woody Harrelson, has done quite well as a Hollywood actor.

Audience Member: [01:37:06] I have a couple of questions. Have you ever seen any photographs of the blood spatter evidence in the car? And have either one of you ever talked to Governor Connally?

Jim Marrs: [01:37:20] I’ve met Governor Connally, but this was afterwards, and I didn’t really get to talk to him much about the assassination. Also was pretty good friends with Jim Wright, former House speaker. Now he was in the several cars back. And it’s interesting, nobody ever talked to him, but he said that he heard the shots and he recognized them as gunshots, as did Connally, because both men were hunters. They were familiar with rifles and rifle sounds. And Jim Wright said that to him, he was on Houston Street heading north, heading towards the School Book Depository Building. And he said the shots came from off over to his left, which is the area of the grassy knoll. So I guess we see why he was never questioned.

In fact, there was a lot of people we all saw the films of the assassination. They remember seeing the couple with their little children lying on the ground. Och, yeah. That was Bill and Gail Neuman. All right. And for years they lived right there, right here in Dallas. You could pick up the phone book and call them, which I did. They were never called to testify to the Warren Commission, and they only got on the record because Jim Garrison in New Orleans subpoenaed him. But I can tell you, he was Bill Newman was on television that afternoon, and the reason they were never called to testify is because both of them fell on their children to protect them because they said the shots were coming right from over their head atop the grassy knoll.

And to your question about blood spatters on the car, that car, when they pulled into Parkland and they took Governor Connally and the president out, they immediately put up the top. They immediately began to wash it down. And then on orders of Johnson, it was sent off and rebuilt and made bulletproof glass was put in it and it was painted black. It had been blue on the day of the assassination and apparently on orders from Johnson. And then, interestingly enough, he would never ride in it.

Dr. Proctor [01:39:19] Just a periphery. If you are interested in that car, you can go to the Henry Ford Museum in Detroit and see it in its current form. But Jim’s absolutely right about the condition inside the car. There is never going to be anything taken from that because the car was completely cleaned and also off limits back here.

Audience Member: [01:39:42] Three part question. One Mr. Proctor. It would seem that the two men that went up into the switchboard area that were listening in to the calls or going to listen in to the call that would make it would seem like they would want that call to go through so they could gather more information. What might find something else that would help them with their case. So it seems odd that they just told her not to put the call through.

Second question for either one of you. I assume that some of the documents that are going to be released in October 2016, I guess, is when some more documents are going to come out. Would some of those be from the House Assassinations Committee and the Church Committee, some of the back room conversations that were taken or testimony that were taken that were never released to the public?

And the third part, Mr. Marsh, the Red Bird situation is interesting to me. I’ve heard a read about the Tosh Plumley part of it and flying the plane in there from Garland, going over to Redbird. And then I’ve also read where Agent Hosty of the FBI said they had tracked a plane that had warmed up its engine set and had been tracked in and arrived in Mexico City at about the approximate time it would have taken to get there. And it went straight to a Cuban airliner that was parked and then it went on to Havana. So any extra you can tell me about what went on at Redbird

Moderator: Before you answer the question. I want you all to say what happened to Roselli?

Jim Marrs: His pieces were found jammed in a can floating in Biscayne Bay prior to just as he was being subpoenaed to talk to the House Assassinations Committee. In fact, the one that got me was there were seven FBI officials, all of whom had been instrumental in the FBI investigation of the Kennedy assassination, who were all subpoenaed to appear before the House Select Committee on assassination.

And they all died within the space of about four months. One fell off a ladder. William Sullivan was mistaken for a deer in his backyard and shot by the son of a New Hampshire state patrolman. Terrible accident. And they all went Och. And Roselli, he’s found murdered. The again, he was being subpoenaed and he was under government protection. But one particular night they all stepped out to get a pizza or something and somebody came in and gunned him down in the basement of his own home before his federal guards could show up again.

And quickly, I think this ties into your first question about who these guys were in the suits. To me, I don’t think there’s any question they were federal officials. I’ve already told you how they took over the case from the very beginning, threatened Dallas police, intimidated and ran all over the place. And I am pretty sure that they were given orders that because they had to allow Oswald to have his phone call. Right. I mean, that’s constitutional law. And so they had orders to go up there to the telephone operators and tell them if a call is going out from Oswald, do not connect it.

And they were also, I’m sure, taking note, mental note or in writing down who that call went to. And as far as Mr. Hurt goes, Yes, I don’t think he was probably active in the CIA at that time. But with that intelligence background, then he was a perfect cutout. Okay? He was the guy who would have taken the call and then called Bishop or somebody who had power over Oswald.

You have to understand if this when you start talking about the investigation, why didn’t they do this? Why didn’t they do that? There was nothing standard about this investigation because it was never conducted at the lower level.

If this was a common street shooting, you know, the detectives and CSI, all of them would be in full mode. They’d get to the bottom of it. They’d track every clue and they’d find out what did it. This happened from the very top, and they closed the doors instead of opening them.

Dr. Proctor: [01:43:48] And to get back to the two men in the in the utility room, I’ve thought many, many hours about that. And here’s what I came up with. And it’s the only thing, it seems to me, to make sense. They, as Jim said, they’ve got to let him at least go through pro forma of making a phone call. But they don’t necessarily have to let the call go through. And in fact, it would probably would have been thought better for it not to go through, because if Oswald was working with anyone outside. And regardless of what they were saying to the public, I think a lot of them had some ideas that maybe that was a reality. If there was some information that was going to be encoded or whatever between the two and that conversation, they didn’t want that to happen. But it was very important for them to find out who it was he wanted to call. So you let the little pantomime go until the point where you know the information than you want. Then you shut it down.

Jim Marrs: [01:44:44] And let’s not forget that if it hadn’t been for Mrs. Tryon who actually was listening and they didn’t know that and she wrote down the message on her own, we would never know about any of this. It just didn’t happen. Just like so much else in this case.

Audience Member: [01:45:01] Dr. Proctor. You made a comment about I believe the agent was Bohlen talking about a Secret Service involvement. Yes. What do you think about the theory that the one of the shots may have come from the Secret Service?

Dr. Proctor: [01:45:18] I’ve not studied that particular area, but Abraham Baldwin was absolutely convinced that there was a former Secret Service man. He hinted that it may well have been a man who was on White House detail, who was discovered to be a real bigot, was the word he used and was let go from the from the Secret Service entirely, not just the White House detail, and went back to his home in Alabama, that he felt that in some way or another, whether it was actually being there and shooting or in the planning and processing or logistics or whatever, that he was involved and he had information to prove that. Now, I have not read Mr. Baldwin’s book. I plan to do that right after I finished Beverly’s. But that’s you know, that’s as much as he told us. And so really, that’s as much as we know in terms of what his thought pattern was. And again, no, no avenues were pursued. I mean, there’s a man standing up on the grassy knoll behind the fence who flashed Secret Service credentials when the Secret Service absolutely said we don’t have anybody up there. So who was flashing Secret Service credentials? Your guess is as good as mine in that.

Jim Marrs: [01:46:36] Speaking of Secret Service. Here’s a real oddity. I don’t know if you know this, Mr. Proctor, but in the Warren Commission volumes, we hear from Thomas J. Kelley, who is with Secret Service, and he’s questioning Oswald. And Oswald kind of belligerently says, “Are you with the FBI?”  Because he knew the FBI was kind of messing him around. And he said, “No, I’m with Secret Service.” And here’s Oswald,whomo we’re told is the killer and whom an hour or so after the assassination gunned down a policeman in South Dallas who just stopped him on the street. You know, he says, oh, well, you know what? As I was leaving the depository, a young man, a crew cut, ran up to me, showed me a book of identification and asked where the telephone was. And I stood there to make sure he got to the telephone. Does that sound like somebody that’s just killed the president? Amazing. Was that question about the Secret Service? Are you referring to the theory that the driver shot Kennedy?

Audience Member: [01:47:34] Well, there’s film where it appears a Secret Service agent, the vehicle does raise up a rifle or a machine.

Jim Marrs: [01:47:41] If you look if you look at the latest edition of my book CROSSFIRE, you’ll find ablow-upp of frame 313. And while it is true that the driver, Greer, did turn and look over his right shoulder at Kennedy as he applied the brakes and the car came to almost a dead halt. His hand is obviously on the wheel and what appears to be a gun in bad generation copies of the spirit of him is actually the sun glinting off of the greased hair of Kellerman, who’s sitting next to him. All you older folks you remember 1963 were all wore hair, grease, right? Brylcreem? Yeah. Or Vitellius. And the sun was glinting off of that. The driver did not shoot Kennedy.

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:20] Absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah.

Audience Member: I have a question about the second number on the call card. That was the dummy number.

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:29] And maybe. Maybe not. Think of this scenario.

Audience Member: [01:48:33] Can I. Can I ask my question?

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:34] I beg your pardon?

Audience Member: [01:48:35] Yes. So Oswald says he wants to call these two numbers now, A, did he have any his telephone book on him or had they taken it by then? And if they’d taken it, that means he had memorized these two numbers. And and I’m wondering. You know. Did he ever. Ah, never call this John Hurt. Never knew him. So he had looked these. He looked to John Hurt’s up in a phone book at some point, not knowing which was which and memorized both of them. Or why? Why? That dummy number’s on there. Okay.

Dr. Proctor: [01:49:13] Sorry to interrupt you, but you and I were thinking in exactly the same, and we got to the same point. Think of it from what Marchetti said to us about the cutout. If somebody was trying to run Oswald as an agent or make him think he was being run, then he would be provided a cutout. Let’s assume for just a minute that John D. Hurt was just someone found in a newspaper article about a former counterintelligence man who is now an alcoholic and making crank calls to the governor of North Carolina. And they say, “Oh, this would be really good, because if if he ever got involved, people would just chalk it up to crank call.”  What you would do is say, if you ever get into a situation where you need my help, call John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina. He (Oswald) memorizes that. He goes away. He (Oswald) thinks, “All right, I bet I can’t do directory assistance or information if I’m ever in jail or if I’m really hung up somewhere. So I better memorize the numbers.”  He calls information. He says there’s two John hurts and he says, probably something rather rude and says, okay, give me both numbers, which I remember back then they would do, though they won’t do that now. And he got both numbers and he memorized them and that’s how they ended up on this. That’s the thing that makes sense, and that’s exactly what I think someone in Oswald’s position would have done. How do you feel about that?

Jim Marrs: [01:50:42] I feel exactly the same somebody who is running. Oswald said. If you get in trouble, call John Hurt in Raleigh. And he didn’t know who he didn’t there were two. Yeah, they didn’t know that. And John D, of course, as I said, has already been implicated with the ONI intelligence training that Nags Head. And so, you know, chances are that as the assassination approached, I want you all to understand something very clearly.

Lee Harvey Oswald was not an innocent person off the street. It was not like he didn’t know anything. He was mixed up in all of this. From his work with the anti-Castro Cubans to the pro-Cubans to the to his leafleting in New Orleans, etc., etc.. Guy Banister and David Ferry, that whole crew. And then in fact, he was handing out pro-Castro literature in Dallas, which doesn’t usually get mentioned. But I talked to Dallas policemen who had started to run him in one time because he’s on a street corner in Dallas handing out pro-Castro literature. And they had a big argument. And he said, “It’s my First Amendment rights”. And the cop finally said, okay, so, you know, he was laying down this legend, as they say, in the CIA, a cover as being pro-Castro. What a perfect patsy for the assassination.

And so I think as the assassination approached, Oswald began to know that something very heavy was going on. In fact, I’m going to tell you, you may disagree with me, Mr. Proctor, but I think Oswald is a low level intelligence asset. I’m not going to call him an agent, and I don’t think he had an employment record as as such with anybody. But he was being used and he was making some money on the side.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:52:21] And I think that he tried to warn his superiors of what was going to go on. I cannot prove this, but I heard from several Dallas police officers back in the sixties that a week or two before the assassination, the Dallas police had received a letter and they’d filed it away and sent it to their intelligence division that was warning that there was going to be an assassination attempt on Kennedy, and it was signed by Alex J. Heidel. Well, we know that Alex J. Heidel was the pseudonym of Lee Harvey Oswald, but the Dallas police at this time, they probably tried to look up Alex J. Heidel. They couldn’t find any record of him, so they thought, Well, it’s a crank letter and they simply filed it away.

Now, what these policemen also told me back in the sixties was that on the Monday following the assassination, the FBI swarmed all over the Dallas police headquarters. They went through their lockers, they went through the desk drawers, they went through the filing cabinets. They said they even went through the saddlebags on the motorcycle officers motorcycles. And of course, then when they went to look for this letter from A. J.Heidel. it’s not there anymore. So I can’t prove that.

We also know that the night before the assassination, an FBI analyst named William Walter said that a telex came through over the FBI wire, saying that information had been developed, that there may be an assassination attempt on Kennedy in Texas. And then the next day that disappeared again, control from the very top.

But Walter went I believe he testified to the House committee, didn’t he?

 

Dr. Proctor: I think so, yeah.

Jim Marrs: And he he thought. That was such an important telex that he didn’t save the actual telex, but he had all written it all down. He had contemporary notes of this. So I think and then we also know that Lee Harvey Oswald went to FBI headquarters trying to see Hosty, his FBI handler, and had left a note behind. And the only person who actually seems to have read the note was one of the secretaries. And she was vague. She said, “I thought it was some sort of warning.” And of course, the FBI said, well, yeah, he was warning the FBI to not bother my wife again or I’m going to do something bad to the FBI.

But I’ll tell you something, folks, if that were the case, we would have seen that note published on the cover of Life magazine to show what a violence-prone guy was while I was instead Hosty after the assassination, the J. Gordon Shankland, the head agent in Dallas called in Hosty, and he said he said, “Now that Oswald’s dead, there won’t be a trial. I said, get rid of that.” And so Hosty started to fold it up and walk out and he says, “No, I mean, get rid of it. So they tore it up and they flushed it down the toilet.”

Now, does that sound like how’s that for destruction of evidence?

Dr. Proctor: [01:55:01] And one last thought about that. There’s a book out there, and sometime I’d love to know what you think of it, written by a woman named Judith Baker who claims to have been the mistress of Oswald when he was in New Orleans the the summer before the assassination. She claims in that book that at the time, just immediately prior to the assassination, he had called her from Dallas, which was very rare. After he left New Orleans, he made very little contact with her, but he called her to say that he was afraid that something really bad was going to happen and that his sense was that he was being put there as part of a team to try to prevent an assassination.

Now, think about that one for a while. For the man that ends up being the patsy, I can’t again guarantee that that is absolutely accurate. But that’s her report. And after having many conversations or email conversations with Judith, I find her relatively creditable. And I think that the things that she points out in her book called Lee and Me, take that three months and give us a whole new picture of what Lee Oswald was really like and that he was very much the way Jim describes him as down in the dirt and working with the people who were also down in the dirt.

But as a man who loved his country and thought he was doing something good through his intelligence work, right?

Jim Marrs: [01:56:21] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’ve spent a lot of time with Judith. Very Baker. And I tell you, I was very leery of her at first because of the length of time that gone by before she spoke out.

But if you’ll read her book, Me and Lee, she explains in intricate detail. And I do find out that, number one, she’s a very smart lady. Number two, she’s got a photographic memory. I can’t remember what I had for breakfast two days ago, you know, and she can remember all these details from 1963.

Plus she’s got evidence to back it up.

She worked at Riley Coffee Company at the exact same time as Oswald, and she’s got the time cards to prove it.

And they were hired at the same time and they were fired about the same time.

And just for one quick example, she said that her job at Riley was to clock Oswald out every day because his job was twofold. Number one, to work within the Riley, who hired a lot of Cubans to try to find out which ones were the pro-Castro Cubans and which ones were the anti-Castro Cubans. And now if you’re with a bunch of Cubans, how are you going to find out which ones are pro-Castro? You pose as a pro Castro-ite and then one of them will come up and go, “Yeah, you’re right.” And there now you’ve identified the pro Castro. So that was one job. His second job was to sneak out of work, go over to David Perry’s apartment where they were working on a cancer experiment. Initially, she thought they were trying to work on a cure for cancer, but then later she got very turned off because she realized they were actually working on a causative factor, an agent that would create cancer.

Dr. Proctor: [01:57:57] They were, in essence, trying to trying to weaponize cancer, weaponize cancer.

Jim Marrs: [01:58:02] So anyway, so she said and her job was to babysit Oswald while he was at Riley’s cover for him. In fact, she said she was supposed to clock him out every day. Well, okay, He went to work from 8 to 5. And so I went back and looked at his time records and he could clock in in the morning exactly what she expects. 7:59 8:01 You know, a few minutes off now and then because you show up again a little early. A little. But when he clocked out it in the afternoon, 5:00 ching, 5:00 ching 5:00.

ching. punching the time clock. So there’s a lot, and then I went in the Warren Commission and found his immediate supervisor at Riley and read his deposition, and he says, “You know, it’s funny, I never could find him. He never was around and said when I’d catch up with him, I’d say, you know, where have you been?” And he’d  (Oswald) say, “Oh, I’ve just been around”  So it all fits. And I do believe Judith Baker.

Jim Marsh: [01:58:59] I do.

Audience Member: [01:59:00] Too. Do you think any shots came from the sixth floor? And if you do, who do you think it was that was doing the shooting?

Dr. Proctor: [01:59:08] Someone shooting a Mauser and not a man? Liquor Carcano. That’s for one thing.

Jim Marrs: [01:59:13] Yeah.

Dr. Proctor: [01:59:14] I don’t know. No one’s ever been identified. As far as I know. No serious names have been put forward as any of the other shooters.

Jim Marrs: [01:59:21] Wait a minute. But wait a minute. We knew at the time that the FBI went in and fingerprinted all the School Book Depository employees, and needless to say, they made a big deal out of it. They found Lee Harvey Oswald fingerprints on the sixth floor. Big deal. Everybody knew he’d been up there working. They were all moving boxes around. It would have been unusual if you had not found his fingerprints up there. But here’s what’s really fascinating to me is in the late in the nineties, a Texas investigator got hold of the fingerprint cards for Malcolm Mack Wallace, who is a convicted hitman and connected to Lyndon Johnson. In fact, he had been convicted of a murder down in Austin back in the late forties that apparently connected to Johnson. And then Billy Solstice has named Mack Wallace as a hit man who killed some people for Lyndon Johnson and his and they made a 32 point comparison match of these fingerprints on the sixth floor is matching those of Malcolm Mack Wallace.

Now, I think that is extremely weird because Johnson may have been murderous, but he was not stupid. And I don’t think he would have allowed Mack Wallace, a convicted hitman who could be directly connected to him within 50 miles of Dallas if he knew assassination was going to take place.

But what I do think is, is that one of two things. They either maneuvered Mack Wallace into getting up on the sixth floor where they knew he’d leave some fingerprints behind, or better yet, they simply planted the fingerprints of Mike Wallace on the sixth floor so that they had absolute total control over Johnson.

Dr. Proctor: [02:01:04] Yeah, and his mind is more devious than mine. I hadn’t taken it to those last two levels. But yeah, when I saw the Wallace report and the fingerprints, my immediately thought was, Nah, that’s not going to happen. That’s there’s some other explanation or there’s an error here. But now that I hear his response, I like it back here.

Audience Member: [02:01:26] What do you make of the Jim Files confession and the part that the Mafia, as far as he was concerned?

Jim Marrs: [02:01:34] Okay, She’s talking about James Files, who is currently incarcerated in Joliet Prison in Illinois, and he has confessed to being the grassy knoll gunman and tells a pretty good story.

As a long time newsman, I like to pride myself on being a pretty good reporter. And I always thought if I could actually sit in front of files, look him in the eye, watch his body language, I think I’d be able to determine, you know, whether he’s the real deal or whether he’s faking it.

But I got to tell you, I did that. I did go into Joliet Prison. I did sit down across from James file. I looked him in the eye. I watched his body language. I had all the questions lined out for him.

And I’m going to be honest with you, I’m still unsure in my own mind if he’s really telling the absolute truth or not. Now, he is who he says he is. He is he was a hit man. He was connected to Chuck Nicoletti, the head premier, hitman of the Chicago mob. He knew all of the mobsters there from Glen on down, and he was a driver for Nicoletti. I think all that’s very true, especially because one of my good friends is still Zack Shelton, who is an FBI agent now retired, who actually worked in the Chicago office and covered organized crime, and he vouches for the authenticity of James files.

But now when James File said that he was on the grassy knoll and he fired the shot, I don’t know. I’m still I’m still that’s kind of a toss up. I think he heard things. I think he knew a lot of the inside information about the assassination. But has he inserted himself into the story or was he actually the shooter?

And I’m not really certain because there is another candidate for the grassy knoll gunman that I think is rates in my mind higher than James’s files.

And that is a member of the Dallas police force at that time named Roscoe White. His son (Beverly will tell you, and she’ll vouch for this), well, she did tell you –  she said that after the shooting and she was standing around wondering what where she wanted to leave. But she didn’t want to. She was afraid. Somebody thinks that you might want to talk to her. And then she saw this man on the grassy knoll and she didn’t actually know him, but she knew that it was Geneva White’s husband, Roscoe and that he worked for the Dallas police. And so she thought, “I can leave now, right?” Because they know who I am and they know to get hold of me. Beverly, I wanted to ask you just real quick, when you saw him, was he in a suit or he was in his uniform? Did not have a hat.

Beverly: He had slacks and a shirt and a police badge on his shirt, but no hat.

Jim Marrs: [02:04:14] Okay, but he had his badge. Okay, now this goes back to the badge man photograph, which you can find in my book CROSSFIRE. Mary Moorman took a photograph of the Polaroid camera from the south side of Mount St, pointing right at the grassy knoll at just about the exact moment of the fatal headshot, either a little bit split seconds before or split seconds afterwards. And we tested that camera and found out it did have the capability of picking up intricate details in the background and behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. We have blown up an area and to me and to many others, including homicide detectives that I’ve showed it to you, they said that’s a man firing a rifle and he’s in the classic rifle firing position. He does not have a hat. You can see his hairline. You see his eyes and his ear. He’s wearing a dark shirt with a semicircular patch on his left shoulder and a shiny object on his chest, which computer analysis showed was metal. So it appears to be that whoever this was was wearing what appears to be a Dallas police uniform. So my money for the grassy knoll gunman right now is on Roscoe White.

Dr. Proctor: [02:05:20] Yeah. And that’s certainly been one of the major theories out there. And just think about it again logically. I always like to just back up and things and say, does this make sense? If you were going to have someone posted somewhere else, like the grassy knoll or up there between the grassy knoll and the and the pergola, and you wanted people who might have glanced across and seen someone with a rifle not to panic or not to draw the conclusion you don’t want them to draw, put them in a police uniform, because then they’ll say, Oh, they’re protecting the president. Let me go back to what I was doing. So yeah, it makes perfect sense and is borne out by the evidence that Jim talked about.

Audience Member: [02:06:01] Yeah. My question is about the rifle that was found. Did it have Oswald’s prints on it? Can it be tied to Roswell or Oswald or what? The rifle.

Jim Marrs: [02:06:11] Well, I mentioned that earlier about the fact that the next day the FBI said they there were no usable prints found anywhere on the rifle or even the inner parts of the rifle. And then Sunday, it shipped back to Dallas. Monday they take it over to the funeral home. And the funeral home director said they put his dead hand on the gun. And that night, Henry Wade announces, we found his fingerprints on the rifle. Except when you look, it’s actually a partial palm print that was found on the underside of the disassembled barrel of the gun. So I do not call that strong evidence.

Audience Member: [02:06:45] Back here. On the office Tippit’s death. Did  Oswald shoot him or was there a person who ran into a library or elementary school? Or Church. A church. And were the pursuers stopped by the feds?

Jim Marrs: [02:07:09] Here’s somebody that’s either read the material or knows something, because that’s it’s absolutely true. I can tell you unequivocally that Lee Oswald did not shoot off cert. How do I know this? Because he was in the theater at the time. His movements. He left his room in house a little after one. He arrived at the theater. About 10 minutes later, the funeral of the theater Assistant manager Butch Burrows, told me that he was there and that Oswald had bought a ticket, had come in and bought popcorn from him, and then went and moved around in the ground floor. Two other people in the theater at that time, an insurance agent and an 18-year-old that I interviewed was sitting there by himself because he wanted to go see the war movie.

Now picture this. He’s in a 900 seat theater and there’s only about 20 people in it scattered here and there. He’s sitting at the back over to the right by himself. When somebody comes in and squeezes past him and sits in the seat next to him. What’s that? You know. He didn’t say anything.

And the guy next to him didn’t say anything, but he just sat there for a while and finally got up, squeezed past him, went over and sat in the middle section. And then, of course, a little later, the cops came in and this was Lee Harvey Oswald.

What was going on there? He was trying to make his intelligence contact. It’s one of these things where he goes sit down next to the guy, and the guy would say, “The geese fly south, and he’d say, but only in the wintertime”  And they’d have their little secret thing there to say, This is we’ve made contacts.

But he didn’t get any response out of Davis. And so he got up and he moved on. So but the point is, all three of these witnesses place Oswald in the theater at the time the movie feature started, which was ten after one, and the Warren Commission didn’t said Tippit wasn’t shot until about 115 or 120. And they base that on the fact that Benevides got after the shooting and several minutes after the shooting got in the police car and and keyed open the microphone and said, We have an officer down here, send help.

So Oswald was in the theater at the time Tippit was shot. And you’re right, immediately the shooting took place at 10th and Patton. So they started scrambling all the squad cars and there were reports that a man had run from the scene and they saw him ducking into a church near there. Well, the police were coordinating and rounding up and getting ready to raid this church when they get another call saying, no, he sneaked into the Texas theater. So they all rushed to the Texas theater.

And by the way, even before all that, I talked to some people who had been in the South Oak Cliff branch of the Dallas Library, and they said shortly after one that a whole bunch of police came running in and were running up and down, searching through all the stacks of books and everything. And finally one of them was saying, “Well, he’s not here.”

And they all ran out again. So they were they they knew who they were after and they were after him.

Dr. Proctor: [02:10:00] And if you really want more details on this, this goes back to one of the first books I ever read and that was ever written on the assassination. Go back to Mark Lane’s, “Rush to Judgment” and find the section where he interviews Mrs. Aquilla Clemmons, who was an eyewitness to the shooting and to the aftermath of the shooting. And if you want to have the hair on the back of your head, stand up, read that and know I’m not going to tell you tonight because you got to go do your homework.

Moderator: [02:10:26] Beverly will have books for sale and consign them a customized signature . Jim, If you bought books, please sell them. And Grover, did you bring any books?

Dr. Proctor: [02:10:39] No, but I’m going to walk away with two of them.

Moderator: [02:10:41] Okay. We’ll be here for additional minutes for questions and answers. As far as I’m concerned, this is one of the best symposiums on the JFK assassination ever held about John.

NOTES ABOUT THE TRANSCRIPT:

Wade Burleson has made the transcript and all errors in grammar, spelling, and paragraph separation are his alone. It may be easier to listen to the audio and follow the transcript as you listen. https://youtu.be/OsItiPfnzLI

 

Dr. Proctor: [00:00:15] What I’m going to do tonight is tell you a story because I found that that’s the best way to get people to understand what happened. And subtly, at the end, come to realize what the import of that really was. The story that we’re talking about takes place on November 23rd, not 22nd, November 23rd, 1963. In the evening, most of it is between the time ten and 11 p.m. Dallas time. I call the lecture that I give,  “From Dallas To Raleigh: (because of obvious things that are going to come up) Lee Oswald and the Fingerprints of Intelligence.” That may sound a little strange, but let me tell you where it came from.

US Senator Richard Schweiker was in charge of a investigation in the US Senate that had to do with the intelligence community and how they responded to the John Kennedy assassination. And Senator Schweiker went into it with both feet and really began to understand some of the complexities of the case and to realize that the answers were not nearly as simple as we had been told. And at one point he said this, quote, “We don’t know what happened, but we do know Oswald had intelligence connections. Everywhere you look with him, there are the fingerprints of intelligence.”

And as I’m sure you’ve already figured out now, we’re not talking about intelligence as in IQ, though he was not really the dumb kind of wasting that he’s projected to be. What we’re talking about is US intelligence. We’re talking about the United States intelligence community represented by but not limited to the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Office of Naval Intelligence and others that find and provide information and analysis so that the leaders of our country can make the decisions that they need. He believed from everything that he saw that Oswald had “the fingerprints of intelligence all over him.” And notice he worded it that way. We’re going to come back to that phrase.

 [00:02:44] I think he did it on purpose. And I and I will let you know why after we understand what Oswald himself did while he was in jail. We cut to the to the situation where, as I said, it’s about 10:00 PM in Dallas and the switchboard room of the Dallas jail, which was on the fifth floor of the municipal building. There were two women working that night. The older and senior. One of them was a Mrs. Louise Swinney and a slightly younger lady who was going to come in and take her shifts starting at 11. Was a Mrs. Alveeta Treon. Now she’d been asked by the lady that was getting off at 11 if she could come in a little early because that lady wanted to leave early. So really Mrs. Treon got there around 1015 or so. She doesn’t know exactly what time she got there, but it left the two ladies there from for that 45 minute period from 1015 to 11 p.m.. And here’s what happened. Mrs. Treon sat down at one end of the switchboard. Mrs. Swinney was already seated at the other end. I’m sure they had things to say s=to each other and all the talk that people were doing about the assassination and how terrible it was for the Kennedy family and for the nation, and certainly for the city of Dallas and all the other things that they might have talked about. But Mrs. Swinney had one other thing to tell her. This is when she said that she had been told earlier in her shift. That at some point they discovered or they knew that Lee Oswald was going to want to make a telephone call, and that at that time two men would come down or go up, depending on where they were coming from to the fifth floor switchboard. They were to be admitted, put into a side room where they could monitor whatever call it was that Oswald wanted to make. And so the two ladies knew about that. Not too long after that, there was a knock on the door. The two men entered. Is this when she knew to accept? To expect them? Ushered them into the room, closed the door, and within a minute or two, the red light on the switchboard indicating a call coming in from the jail itself. Told them pretty much what they needed to know. Mrs. Swinney and Mrs. Treon knew. This is it. The story goes that the two of them literally, in their particular places on the switchboard, plugged in their headsets at exactly the same time. And it was Mrs. Tryon who first said, “Number, please.” But knowing that Mrs. Sweeney was the senior Superior in the hierarchy there and the switchboard and that she sensed that Mrs. Swinney wanted to handle the call, perhaps had been told how to handle the call, she demurred, but she stayed on the line.

Mrs. Treon stayed on the line and was able to hear everything that Lee Oswald was saying to Mrs. Swinney. He told Mrs. Swinney and therefore Mrs. Treon, who he wanted to talk to, who a collect call he wanted to make what area code, the name of the person and two telephone numbers. Is this when he takes the key off so that Oswald can’t hear her, but she’s still on the line and switches to the two men that are sitting in the equipment room? And she tells them everything that Oswald had just said. Mrs. Treon is sitting over there having heard all of it. She’s writing down all this information because she and her daughter, once they found out daughter was visiting her, she worked in the same building. Once they found out that there was going to be this connection with Lee Oswald. The daughter said, “If this happens, write this down and let’s keep it as a souvenir, because this is something we’re going to want to remember.” So that’s what Mrs. Treon was doing, wrote down everything that Lee Oswald said, and Mrs. Swinney repeated it to the two men in the next room Now. Mrs. Tryon couldn’t hear the response of the two men, but. After a few seconds, Mrs. Swinney said “Fine” or “Ok” or whatever, and disconnected the two men in the other room.

Dr. Proctor: [00:07:31] And Mrs. Treon would later say Mrs. Swinney was sitting there extremely nervous, shaking, obviously very agitated at what she was next supposed to do. And that was this. She opened the key back up to Oswald and said, “I’m sorry, sir. No one answered at that number.” Close the key. And the call was finished. She never attempted to make the call. And almost certainly it was not her idea not to do that.

The story continues that the two men came out of the room. Thanked them for their co-operation and left. Mrs. Swinney stayed on until her shift ended at 11 and left then or soon thereafter, and Mrs. Treon was left to consider all that had just happened in the context of everything that had happened in the last 36 hours in Dallas.

Oswald didn’t know when he was making this call that he had 12 hours left to live. Mrs. Treon would later say that she was absolutely dumbfounded at the way that had played itself out, but she had the little slip and she would keep that and take it with her and not actually do anything of significant value with it other than keep it for the family for another five years. Now let’s take a look at the slip that Mrs. Treon actually wrote.

The original slip stayed with the family of the Trojans when they moved to Springfield, Missouri, a couple of years after the assassination. And what has come down to us are

[00:09:26] Photocopies of photocopies of photocpies. And you know what happens even with the best of machines now, but certainly, with the really poor quality or lesser quality machines that they had back then, every time you made a photocopy, things got smudged and became less readable. So, I took one of those, the earliest copy that I could find of the of the slip and digitally remastered it and took out all of the garbage that was on it so that we can see it almost exactly the way Mrs. Treon wrote it. And let’s see the information that’s contained here.

Bottom left AC 919. Well, as Tom alluded in his introduction, I was reading a book in which this story was recounted in 1980, and the author, Anthony Summers, said, “And it is it is reported that Lee Oswald attempted to make a call to area Code 919.”

I was living in Hartford, Connecticut at the time and taken a job up there, and was on a train going into New York City for some business. And I was reading the book, and I got to area code 919, and I stopped, and I said, “That sounds familiar.” And a couple of seconds later, I hope it wasn’t much longer than that, I thought: “That’s my area code at my home.”  I just moved to Raleigh, North Carolina.

Upper left-hand corner “Collect call.”

 

 Obviously, that was the only kind of long distance call that Oswald could have made because there was no way of paying for it and they were certainly for a prisoner. The city was not going to pay for it and then try to collect back from him. So it had to be a collect call.

First line says it came from the jail. Second line, from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Now, I’ll stop here for just a second and say, do you realize or do you understand why we call him Lee Harvey Oswald every time we refer to him? Well, that was his name.

Yeah, but my name is Grover Belmont, Proctor Jr. But nobody calls me that. Nobody refers to me as that. I was not introduced here tonight as your speaker, Grover Belmont. Proctor But think about it. It took me a little while to realize this.

The press got their information from the arrest sheets that were typed up on these old manual typewriters that they had 1963, where it has a space for the person’s first name, middle name, last name. And so that’s the information that was given out, and everybody followed it. And that’s why even today, you’ll hear these notorious criminals or people arrested for crimes listing all of their names when that’s not what they were called.

He was Lee Oswald. And I have made it a point in all of my lectures to refer to him as that, because that’s who he was and that makes him more real, and that makes the situation in Dallas, I think, more real.

To: Raleigh, North Carolina. And there it was. By the time I got around to finding this slip, there was my hometown.

The person called: John Hurt and two numbers over there on the right. You can read them. I don’t need to read them to you (919 834-7430 and 919 833-1253).

And then in the lower right over there: Da. and Ca. And those were the codes that Mrs. Tn wrote in to remind herself that day meant didn’t answer because that’s what Mrs. Sweeney had told Oswald. And Ca canceled “the call was canceled” and not put through. And she put Mrs. Swinney’s name down there because Mrs. Sweeney had been the one to do it. And that’s why that form looks like that.

Now. How do we know now about this? If it did not come to the attention of the Warren Commission and it didn’t. If Mrs. Tryon packed up this slip and carried it with her to Springfield, Missouri, and lived out the rest of her days there, which she did, how is it that we now are gathered here 52 years after the assassination, talking about this particular slip?

And that’s ACT TWO of our story.

When Mrs. Treon moved to Springfield, Missouri, she had been helped. She and her husband and family had been helped to move there by a close family friend who lived there in Springfield, and his name was Winston Smith. And there’s at least two people in this in the assassination law whose name was Winston Smith, but this is the other one. Winston Smith was a family friend, and he figures into this in one way.

One night in the middle of the winter, December, early January of December of 67 or January of 68, Mr. an Mrs. Treon had Winston Smith over there to their house for dinner. And during that dinner she said,” You know, you might be interested in something that happened to me.  I was witness for at the time of the Kennedy assassination.”

Dr. Proctor [00:14:58] He said,” Oh, sure, tell me.” And so she did. She told him everything that I just told you, maybe more. But that’s as much as I know about the issue. And he said all the polite and interested things that people say. And he went away. And he was, he was tangentially in law enforcement himself. He worked in the records area for the penitentiary there. And so he knew law enforcement people. And the more he got in thinking about it. He knew this was not information that should be just state and not considered.

So he called in late January of 68. He called Mrs. Treon and said, “I think I should tell the sheriff of GREENE County here. Mickey Owen I think I should tell him this story and see if he thinks something should be done”  She said, “Well, fine, that’s fine.”

He told Sheriff Owen. Owen said, “Yeah, I think maybe I should go and talk to her.” He Went and talked to Mrs. Treon. He discovered that she was not a flake. She was not after attention. She was not trying to cash in on this. She was not the kind of person that he felt would be fabricating this. She seemed like a normal person. In fact, those were the two words he used. He listened to the story and he said to her, “I think this is federal. This is the assassination of a president. This happened in another state.”

[00:16:25] He continued: “It really is not Green County. I think I should call the FBI office here in Springfield. I think they want to talk to you again.” She said. “That’s fine, too.”

FBI agents did show up. They interviewed her. She said that they were very interested in what she had to say, that it sounded like to her that they had never heard this story before, and it’s almost certain that they had not. She told them about the long distance or LD phone slip that she had filled out that evening, and they said we’d like to see it.

She showed it to them and they said, “We’d like to take this and make copies.” Beverly, is this sounding familiar? And so she said, “Well, sure, but I really do want it back because this has become a family thing.”

And so they agreed and they went away. And she didn’t hear from them for weeks and weeks and weeks. She finally called the sheriff and said, “I haven’t gotten the slip back.” And he was fortunately able to raise enough stink with the FBI that she actually got the slip back. But the most interesting aspect of this part of the story is that somebody during this time, 68, 69, we have no idea what the date is.

But somebody who had listened to Mrs. Treon’s story told in probably greater detail than I shared with you tonight sat down at a typewriter with legal-size paper and carbon paper. And typed out. An affidavit as if prepared by Mrs. Treon and as if giving every single thing that she had said about what happened that night.

This is just this is my retyping of it, because by now the original affidavit is gone and we only have copies of the carbons that were made and now they’re copies of copies. So you wouldn’t be able to really tell anything.

But I retype this and put this on my website so people can read everything that’s there. You’ll notice in the upper left hand corner, it’s written for the State of Missouri, County of Green. Well, the first thought was maybe the sheriff did that, but there’s no indication that he ever said that he did that and he never presented it to her for signing.

Well, then what about the FBI? They knew everything. I’m certain they had taken notes. But why would they have made it for County of Green? We don’t know. But the affidavit appeared. And it appeared very, very quickly.

And I want to show you just how quickly remember I said that in late January. Winston Smith called Mrs. Trojan and said, “I think the sheriff should come and talk to you.” And she said, “Yes, right.” If we were to believe Winston Smith and everything else seems to have been met with, with approval, with the truth Police. If we were to believe what he said a week after that. He was contacted by a journalist. Okay, fine. But here’s what I want you to imagine. He calls the sheriff. Let’s say he calls the sheriff on the exact same day that he called Mrs. Treon. And let’s say that the sheriff rushed out there that day, and let’s say that the next morning he called the FBI, and they rushed out there that day. So that’s three days of our week gone.

But by the time that seventh day had come around, a journalist called Winston Smith, which means he knew Winston Smith had told the story, wanting more information because all the journalists had right now was this affidavit and a copy of the long-distance phone slip. That journalist had sources somewhere that turn things around immediately.

The journalist was a man named Ian Calder. I mean, Calder, he was British, actually was Scottish, worked in the London bureau of the paper that he would ultimately work his career at. Then they brought him over to New York. He lived in New Jersey. He worked in their offices in New York, and he was the journalist that had found this out and was pressing for the story because he thought it would be a very good one for his newspaper.

Does anyone recognize the name Ian Calder? He, by the way, after becoming this reporter, worked his way up. And when he retired in the year 2000 from this newspaper, he retired as chairman and CEO of the entire corporation.

This is a man with a lot of gumption. And this is him and his newspaper. Now, there’s a very short portion of the story here that Ian Calder figures into. I’m going to I’m going to really boil it down, but but it’s it has importance beyond the Raleigh Call story.

Dr. Proctor: [00:22:03] So I want you to know about this story. There was a man by the name of Abraham Bolden. And Abraham Bolden, mong his other many positive qualities and accomplishments, President Kennedy had named him as the first African American Secret Service agent to work the White House detail. He was an extraordinary man. And when he was working in the Treasury, they said he closed more counterfeiting cases than anybody before him. He was brought over to the White House detail and he was working on the White House detail at the time of the assassination, though not in Dallas. He was in Chicago, which is where he was living.

And Abraham Bolden figures into this two ways. First of all, he gave a report that still exists on the night of the assassination. No, I’m sorry, on the night of Saturday, late Saturday night. Remember the time that the call came through the Raleigh call late Saturday night, a dispatch came through to the Chicago Secret Service office, and he assumed to all of them to research any information they might have about a man named Hurt or Heard. He didn’t have anything, didn’t report it. But the other aspect of Abraham Bolden that makes him a part of this is that. He made statements to people he worked with and people he knew that he would testify to the Warren Commission about the lax performance of the Secret Service up to and including the time of the assassination (including)

Dr. Proctor: [00:23:59] Agents being intoxicated at times that they were not supposed to be of using agency cars to travel with women to parties and all the things that actually we’ve been hearing about the Secret Service over the last little bit. He was going to tell people that. Well, he also said that he had evidence that at least one Secret Service agent had been at least peripherally involved with the planning or the outcome of the Kennedy assassination. And he was going to name the name.

Imagine the surprise of all of us conspiracy people to learn that shortly thereafter he was arrested on charges of soliciting a bribe from a counterfeiter that he was trying to put into jail. He was put into jail, and he was. You should read this for yourself. But he was exceptionally badly treated. His wife was threatened with weapons and followed. His children were trying to get him out and trying to get people to recognize that this was not a this was not a man that would take a bribe, but he was, in fact, convicted.

As part of the case to try to find out if Bolden was telling the truth about everything that he was saying, and also to see if Bolden’s assertion that there had been reports of a plan to assassinate the president earlier in Chicago were correct. A Freedom of Information Act request was made for various documents, and the person who filed that used the telephone slip from Mrs. Treon as evidence that there were shenanigans going on, that there were people involved that had not been brought in.

And that’s how the authors that have been talking about the Raleigh call found out about this slip and the very first book that it contained. It had gotten it from that Freedom of Information thing.

So I urge you, if you have an interestto , read Abraham Bolden’s book and he will in that book, he will reveal the things that he had to go through in order to try to get the truth out. I’ll stop here for just one second to say something that I was particularly eager to say has nothing to do with the Raleigh call, but it has to do with people like Abraham Bolden, who, as my grandfather used to say, has a dog in the hunt. People like me. I read things. I go and search out documents, I interview people, I put words together. I come here, talk about the words. I mean nothing. I mean, I may do something good, but my life is in regards to the Kennedy assassination is just because I have chosen that and it chose me. And I am doing the work to try to uncover the people like Abraham Bolden, whose lives were on the line, whose lives were were almost ruined.

And you’re in the presence of one of those people tonight in Beverly Oliver.

Speaker2: [00:27:18] And I want you to leave tonight knowing what a special person you have had in your presence tonight. Think about what she did. She lived through Jack Ruby, introducing her to Lee Oswald when the standard line was that the two had never met and never knew each other. She had witnessed 20 feet away the blowing off of the head of a president of the United States and was looking at it through a film camera. She had people coming to her to take her property away. She had people who were close to her that worked in the same places that she did, literally drop off the face of the earth that have never been heard from since. And their fate literally unknown. Living in fear of talking about what she went through and what she saw hiding. And then finally, the character that undoubtedly she was born with came out and she said, “I’m not going to do it anymore.” I want to know the truth and I’m going to live my life finding the truth because I was there and I was the one that was impacted by this. Grover Proctor wasn’t. I was a seventh grader in middle school, but she lived it and is is a beacon to us all today of people who are strong and courageous. And Beverly, I’m just honored to have met you tonight.

Speaker2: [00:28:51] So thank you. So that gets us up to the late seventies House Assassinations Committee. The Select Committee on Assassinations is formed, and there’s a John Kennedy assassination side, and there’s a martin Luther King assassination side. The John Kennedy assassination side was headed up by Chief Counsel Robert Blakey. You’ll hear about him again in just a minute. And they had a large staff and they had initially a lot of money in their budget. And initially the idea was we’ll get all of these ideas that have been floating around and we’ll flesh them out and we’ll see if there’s really anything to it.

Well, with that as their goal, a man at the at a private research area, the Assassinations Archive and Research Library, that’s what it’s called now at a different name, then went to the files and found the not the original of the affidavit, but the original carbon copy. And I know it was because I’ve handled part of it. I had actually had it in my hand thanks to them, and they photocopied it and they sent to the House Assassinations Committee.

And to their credit, they assigned a senior counsel and a staff to find out what was going on. And that’s how we’ve gotten most of the information that we have today was through their work. Now, I want to warn you, a year and a half later, when their final report came out from the House Assassinations Committee and the Kennedy side, there was not a mention of John Hurt or Alveeta Treon or Louise Swinney or Raleigh, North Carolina, at all.

Dr. Proctor: [00:30:44] But that doesn’t mean the staff wasn’t busy and that chief counsel or lead counsel for that group, a woman by the name of Surrel Brady, I understand an extraordinary attorney, did produce a lot of work and produce a 24 page report on it at the end. Never saw the light of day when I began to research it in 1980. That report was probably about a year and a half old. No one had ever seen it except the senior people. And so as part of my initial research, I contacted Robert Blakey and I said, “I want to know everything that you know.” And he sent me a copy of it. And I have. I have reproduced it. I’ve typed the entire 24 pages out, plus all of those footnotes, and it’s on my website. So now finally it’s published. But here’s where we go from here. They wanted to know who is the man that was being called. And here we get to:

ACT THREE: Where we’re going to where we’re going to really climax this thing and find out where we are today. Who was that John Hurt that was on that slip? And why were there two telephone numbers?

Dr. Proctor: [00:31:59] Well, a very, very, very, very good question. Two phone numbers. So they called Southern Bell Telephone Company, which was the regional bell in charge of North Carolina and other states at that time. And talked to a woman named Carolyn Raybon. And that name will always be in my brain because I can’t believe the answers that she gave to a congressional committee.

They gave her the two telephone numbers that had come on that slip, and she got back to them and said, “I’m sorry, but those numbers are unofficially unlisted They were unlisted in 1963. And since they were unlisted, that means that the party who owned them had requested that. And without a court order or a congressional subpoena, I can’t give you the names associated with it.”

So they had subpoena power. They got a subpoena. They sent it to her. She was very happy. And she told them that the first number was for a John D. Hurt and the second one was for a John W. Hurt, both living in Raleigh, and that’s all the information that they had.

Now. I thought. It’s really strange that both numbers would be unlisted because that was not done capriciously and by a lot of people at that time.

So I had an idea. I was in Hartford, Connecticut. Still, I call my parents living in Raleigh, North Carolina.

I said, “Would you do me a favor?” Sure. “Would you go to the public library? And would you get out the phone book for 1963 and would you look up the name Hurt and tell me what you see??

And there they were.

Dr. Proctor: [00:34:07] Maybe, maybe we’re dealing with a different timeline. It doesn’t run January to December. So I said, let’s go back a year or so, because maybe that’s the directory that was in effect at the time. Well, no, They’re there. Okay, let’s go two forward. Maybe that’s when they were. No, they’re there. And Southern Bel maintained to the very end that they were unlisted. I still haven’t figured that out. I’ve never found Carolyn Rayborn, and I’m sure when I do, she doesn’t want to talk to me (laughter).

The second name presented the House Assassinations Committee with very little problems because they decided basically to ignore it. In the entire 24-page report Surrel Brady wrote, she mentioned the second phone number exactly four times one to say that it was on the slip itself. Well, we knew that, noting that it was the one number of the two that Winston Smith had memorized when he saw the slip. Well, who cares about that? Third thing was that when they actually ended up talking to the first John Hurt, that he didn’t know the second John Hurt. Okay. Who cares about that? And let’s see, the fourth thing was that John Hurt, on Wake Forest Road did own that number.

Wow. I mean, that’s all they did. But a wonderful and prize-winning, award-winning journalist in North Carolina, in Raleigh and I happened to publish our Raleigh Call articles on the same day.

Now, he had a different slant from what I did, but he did something that none of the rest of us did. He found John W Hurt, who had been a 24-year-old auto mechanic working in a tire recapping business on that day. So it’s probably not who Lee Oswald was calling. Especially when they found out at the House Assassinations Committee who John D. Hurt was. And let me tell you who John D Hurt was.

First of all, thank you, Ancestry.com.

We have wonderful pictures that in this lower left hand corner, that’s, of course, John Hurt on the right and his sisters in the middle, Diantha and Ruby on the left.

So let’s get our let’s get our bearing here. On the evening of November 23rd, Lee Oswald supposedly al one nut with no connections to anybody doing this for his own reasons. He decides that he needs to call John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina.

John Hurt, who incidentally had been a special agent for the United States Army Counterintelligence Division.

Shades of Schweiker who didn’t even know that when he made the statement of Oswald having the fingerprints of intelligence all over him. Well, that seemed like it was almost either too good or too bad to be true. So they pursued it. As it turns out, there’s a very, very complicated man.

He had been in the in the Army counterintelligence during World War Two. He’d served both in Germany and in Japan as part of his work in Japan. He had uncovered a huge silver bullion cache that the Germans had sent over there as payment for them to keep them going in the war. That’s up. That was down to him and his work. He had gone into that after having graduated from University of Virginia with an undergraduate degree in law. But as he told me when I interviewed him, “I never practiced law.”

When his when his career with counterintelligence had ended in 1947, he was offered a commission to stay on as an officer and continue to work in counterintelligence. And he turned that down. And given the way his life went after that, it’s probably a good thing because starting in about the early fifties and certainly by the mid fifties, his physical, mental, psychological and just about every other kind of of health had deteriorated to the point that he could no longer hold a job. Psoriatic arthritis had completely taken over his limbs to the point that they had to amputate many of his fingers. He had.

Dr. Proctor [00:38:58] He had, let’s see…. Ah… the Veterans Administration had kept up with him. And when the House Assassinations Committee came knocking, this is what they had to say about him. “ VA contained his separation quality record, which identifies Hurt as having served as an investigator of accidents and sabotage. He attended an eight-week military intelligence training, school and war intelligence course.”

The file further documented a severe case of psoriatic arthritis, which hurt has been afflicted since 1942. By April 63, Hurt had been rated by the Veterans Administration as 100% disabled.

And in fact, the Social Security Administration had labeled him as completely and 100% disabled by 1955, which is when he held his last job and had to quit because he simply couldn’t couldn’t go on.

According to a report of an examination in November of 63, a Board of Examiners of the Veterans Administration. Now, this is interesting. November of 63. Hurt goes in for an examination and the VA determines that quote, “This veteran’s hands serve no more useful purpose than would amputation. In June and August, 64 fingers on both hands were amputated.”

Hurt’s medical history also included treatment for a psychiatric disorder and alcoholism. He was known for making crank calls to politicians, including the governor of North Carolina.

A very sad case.

By the time I got around to talking to him in 1980. I talked first to his wife. She answered the phone at the same number. And she wanted to know all about why I wanted… It was clear I was not the first journalist that had contacted them. And it was, of course, always about the Raleigh call. And I said that I was working for Spectator magazine, which was true. And in fact, our offices were five blocks up the same street they lived on.

I was trying to get her to get the idea that this is not National Enquirer calling. This is somebody who’s right here and your same city. And, you know, we know how to take care of our own and that sort of thing. And she said, “You’re a Spectator.” So that was that. And I say that not to put her down, but literally she was so rattled that she couldn’t concentrate on what I was saying. But she did finally put her husband on and he denied ever having received a call from Oswald, which comports with what Treon had said, nor having ever made one into the Dallas jail cell.

And we’ll talk about in just one second why that was of interest to them, because that was the explanation that came to be given as to why the phone slip was there, that a crank call came in and it was written up on a piece of paper that the crank call and they gave the information and then threw it in the wastebasket. And Mrs. Treon came along, got it out of the wastebasket, thought it was the call that had come in. And that’s why we have it.

But as we’ll see in just a minute, that can’t be the case.

John Hurt, a little bit of bio here. The State Bureau of Investigation was very interested in this man because of his attempts to get hold of government leaders. He was very upset that the governor didn’t come to his local precinct meeting one time. And so the governor sent out a couple of his aides to go to his house, talk to him, try it, because they were in the same party wanting to get him to understand that the governor was busy, but he really supported what he was doing. And basically Hurt, met them at the door, met them at the door and said, “Go away. And if you come back, I’ll you’ll be facing both barrels of my shotgun”

Hurt was not somebody that people were really confident had focus on reality. This last at the bottom down here on the right as manic depressive, paranoid and dangerous to society.

So. That’s the man that was called. So the question became, was the call incoming as in a crank call or outgoing?

And remember, let’s go back to the affidavit for just one last time. Mrs. Treon had never seen that affidavit. Clearly, it came from someone who knew her information, apparently not completely accurately, but they knew enough to type two and a half pages, legal size pages of what she had said.

Dr. Proctor: [00:43:35] So when the House Assassinations Committee deciding to pursue the Raleigh call, got in touch with Mrs. Treon, they said, well, you know, in your affidavit, you said… She said, “I never signed an affidavit. I’ve never seen an affidavit. I’ve never given an affidavit.”

And they said, well, we have it here. It wasn’t signed, but it has your name. She says, “I’ve never done it.”  So they sent her a copy again, A copy of a copy of a copy. And they said, “Would you please tell us what is correct and what is incorrect and for the things that are incorrect. Would you write in the in the margins and tell us what is correct?”

Well, in the original, someone had gotten the idea that Mrs. Treon had gone rooting around in the trashcan in the switchboard room after Mrs. Swinney left to get some information to write on that slip. And Mrs. Tryon wrote back that section, crossed it out and said, “I would never have gone to the trash can. I didn’t need to go to the trash can. I was listening to Oswald’s voice tell me the information that I wrote down there.”

Before that information became known to the public, all we had was the idea, “Well, maybe she did go to the trash can and maybe there was a possibility of an error.” And two or three really big time and well respected assassination researchers thought that that must have been the case because it really didn’t fit their particular pet theory otherwise.

But now we know that that’s not the case and that two women, not just one, heard Oswald give this information and attempt to make this call.

So I think we pretty much decided now that as Blakey did, having known about the corrections to the affidavit, Blakey and Surrel Brady and all the others of the House Assassinations Committee fell over their selves saying how much they believed that the call was real. It was – the direction was outgoing from the jail, that it was troubling and possibly sinister in its implications.

And and so now we know they were correct.

I think I had mentioned Anthony Summers and Robert Blakey. Summers is the book that I first found about area code 919. I called him and what he told me at that interview that I didn’t tell you before was he said, “You know, I’m sorry I put that in the book.” I said, Why? Thinking, “Oh, no. There goes my big story.” He said, “I’m sorry I put that in the book because, you know, the more I think about it, there’s no real way to substantiate it. And corroborated and it doesn’t sound right. And everything else in my book is just nail, nail, nail everything. Everything’s solid. But that’s the one thing.”

And I said, “Well, you know, I appreciate that. And I will certainly in the article that I write, I will certainly show your doubts.” And he thanked me and that was it.

Within a week, he had called me back, which was a shock in itself. He called me back and he says, “I’ve changed my mind.” He had been on an interview panel, I think on The Today Show with G. Robert Blakey, the Chief Counsel of the House Assassinations Committee. And as they were literally walking in the parking lot, he said, to get to their respective cars,  Summers mentioned to him about the Raleigh call, and says, “You know, I’m just sorry I put that in my book.” And Blakey, he said, “Why? That’s one of the most important things we discovered. We just couldn’t write about it because we didn’t know why Oswald did it. But we’re absolutely convinced that he tried to make the call and somebody blocked him. And it was to this John Hurt.”

And they stood and talked about it. And Blakey convinced Summers and Summers to this day – I saw him just last year at a conference in in D.C. – says, “Absolutely, you know, that’s Blakey and you were right.” And that’s the only time my name and Blakey’s has ever been put in the same sentence.

Dr. Proctor [00:47:26] But there you go. So we come now to the to the finality of it.

We know that Schweiker said that he had reason to believe that Oswald had the fingerprints of intelligence all over him. So what does it mean? Why would he have been calling someone who had been in intelligence in the past? What’s the connection?

There’s absolutely no connection that John David Hurt has any known activity related to the Kennedy assassination. Just simply none out there. He probably wouldn’t have physically been able to do it anyway.

Well, we called another man. We called a man. And I believe this is the next slide. Yes. We were told to call Victor Marchetti, who had been one of the chief analysts and ran agents in the Central Intelligence Agency who had left, had written a book called “The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence,” which was the first book in the United States to be subjected to pre-publication censorship. And we were told, if anybody knows what’s going on with why Oswald would have called hurt, he would know.

So we called him, we asked him and he says, “I know exactly what’s going on.” One of the things we found out about Victor Marchetti is he doesn’t doubt himself very much. “I know exactly what was going on.” He says, :I don’t know Oswald, I don’t know Hurt, but I know exactly what was going on.”

Dr. Proctor: [00:49:00] “Okay, please tell us”. He says, “It’s standard operating spycraft. If you’re trying to run an agent and you have a feeling that this agent may be doing something dangerous and may get caught or have trouble of some sort, the one thing you don’t want is to have that person calling you his handler directly. You don’t want that. So you create what is known as a cutout.”  And he says, “So the agent is given a name and a phone number and told if you get into trouble, call this person. He’ll know who you are. He’ll know to call me. And that way I’ll know you’re in trouble and we’ll come get you”.

And he (Marchetti) said, “That’s exactly what someone had done to Oswald.”

Now, the question remains at this point, was Oswald really working for American intelligence or was somebody trying to make him think that he was. And if I had to say one way or another, my guess would be that it’s more the latter.

We’ve seen no hard or even soft evidence that Oswald was hired by the CIA or any other intelligence group as part of the Kennedy assassination. But the other thing that Victor Marchetti said about Oswald was that, you know, the Office of Naval Intelligence in the late fifties ran an office in Nags Head, North Carolina, which, by the way, also had area code 919 at that time. And he said it was for finding disaffected young servicemen of the various services who were smart enough and might be the right type to be trained to defect to the Soviet Union. As for the purposes of serving the United States. And once their hope to be picked up as an agent of some intelligence over there, and that way we could use that person to give false information to the Soviets. Let’s remember, it was not called the Cold War for nothing.

And he said, “That’s exactly what Oswald must have done.”

And as it turns out, in the recent years, we’ve actually found two pieces of evidence to indicate that Oswald actually did that. The first one, researcher Mark Lane talked to a man who was a former Marine, had served with Oswald in California. One day Oswald went to meet with some of the top brass. Came back and Bucknell, the person who gave the information, said that Oswald told him that he was being sent to the Soviet Union on assignment by American intelligence and that he would return to the United States in 1961 – a hero.

Another one from a former CIA pilot, Tosh Plumley, testified in 2004 with the following statement. “When I later learned Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with the intelligence training matters first at Illusionary warfare training in Nags Head, North Carolina.”

Dr. Proctor: [00:52:14] So here we had some young man, if we want to take this picture that’s being presented (Lee Oswald), who, as far as we know, was a very happy Marine, given the opportunity to serve his country in a clandestine way. And he came back. He wasn’t picked up by Soviet intelligence, so he came back. He’s going around trying to find who he is and what he can do and gets caught up in something that he has no idea what the outcome is going to be.

And because there has been this little taste of cloak and dagger in his background, it would be very easy for someone who knew what he was doing to try to convince him that he was working for American intelligence.

A man by the name of Antonio Veciana was a Cuban anti-Castro refugee who had come to this country and formed an anti-Castro regiment of people who were willing to do whatever it took to try to get rid of Castro. And one day, literally a couple of weeks, as I remember, or a month before the assassination he had said to Congressional investigators that he saw the man that he would later recognize as Lee Oswald, talking to his own, Veciana’s, his own CIA contact, a man he knew by the false name of Maurice Bishop.

Dr. Proctor: [00:53:47] The congressional investigator tried literally to the investigator died to get him to admit he even brought them into the same room, try to get him to admit that this Maurice Bishop was a CIA Western Hemisphere Chief by the name of David Atlee Phillips.

But Bezzina never would do it. And the congressional investigator died with that being the one thing he felt he was never going to see.

His wife, the wife of the reporter of the investigator continued his work, maintained the relationship that the families had had with the Vecianas, and last year I was very fortunate, as were many other much better researchers than I am, including one I think is here tonight. Was there to hear Antonio Vezina finally get up and say or his son read his statement that: “These two people are the same person.”

Yet one more indication that Oswald, the lone nut who had no connections to anyone, was seen meeting and talking with a CIA analyst or agent at the time that the assassination was being planned. Do we know that’s what they were talking about? Absolutely not. But Oswald once again shows up with the fingerprints of intelligence.

Three books, if you want to look into it, are the ones that have most of the information about this. And very quickly, I’ll end by telling you about them. The very first one where I saw the phone slip for the very first time got Hurt to say, “My interest was from the standpoint of the Kennedys. In fact, I’d be inclined to take the same action Ruby took. I would have loved to have put a bullet in Oswald. I wish I could give you some leads, but I can’t because I don’t have the slightest idea how this came about.”

(Hurt’s) standard line until he died one year after I talked to him.

Anthony Summers book the way that it was published originally, the way he wished it had changed or left out and then came to accept. And that gives the information about the Uthe US Naval Intelligence and Nags Head.

And the extraordinary book by James Douglas. Which I am flattered that he he quoted from me in there. He said, is the situation grew more desperate. “On late Saturday night, Oswald tried to make a mysterious long distance phone call to Raleigh, North Carolina. Osawald was trying to call a John Hurt. The House Select Committee on Assassinations’ lawyer Surrel Brady, who was in charge of investigating the wrong call described the fact that John David Hurt had served in U.S. Counterintelligence as provocative.

And then this comes from Surrel Brady’s own report, where she indicates, as they would do in every aspect of their work, the veracity that they felt for Mrs. Tryon and what she had to say.

Surrel Brady report: [00:56:58] “The allegation that Oswald was calling John David heard is disturbing because the committee has found no evidence that Mrs. Tryon had any motive to invent the story, especially with such precise details as the actual phone number listed to John Hurt.”

The CONCLUSION

So there he is, probably the most enigmatic man of the 20th century in terms of what we know and what we don’t know about him. Lee Oswald.

But the Raleigh call stands is that one little slice of things that had that phone slip not existed or been lost in the move or the sheriff had decided, no, it’s not really all that interesting or any of one of a number of different things that could have happened that would have kept us from knowing about it.

Does it prove anything about who actually killed John Kennedy?

 

No, but it certainly gives us a provocative look, to use their word, about the man who was put in the frame, who said he was a patsy.

And if he was a lone gunman, which I personally doubt, but many people that are very intelligent and whom I respect do believe that have a very, very, very hard time understanding the facts as presented here related to their vision of what happened.

And I think that the more we look into what Schweiker told us back in the seventies about Oswald’s fingerprints of intelligence, the closer we’ll get to finding out what actually happened on that day. Thank you very much. (APPLAUSE)

MODERATOR: [00:58:35] I’ve got a surprise for you tonight. In addition to Dr. Proctor, we have one of the finest Kennedy assassination historians ever. I think he might have beaten you in terms of time and dollars he spent. But, Jim Marrs, would you come to the stage? I’m going to ask the first question and I’m gonna let Jim ask the second question.

Question: rom what I read in your research, the second Oswald called Hurt, he was a dead man. Can you comment on that?

Dr. Proctor: [00:59:17] Possibly, but since no one was talking about it, it’s hard to know. Obviously, the two men that were in there in the closet who kept the call from having been made were probably the only two people that could have spread the word like that to cause him to be killed. I think it may have been one of the dominoes in the chain, but it probably wasn’t the only one.

Moderator: [00:59:42] I want to give you a chance to ask questions. Comments? As far as test.

Jim Marrs: [00:59:45] Well, all I like to say is that I’ve been at this for 52 years now. I was a journalism major at the University of North Texas in 1963, and when I heard that there’d been a shooting in the motorcade, I turned on my little black and white TV. And I know I was watching TV for, I don’t know, 15, 20 minutes before Walter Cronkite came on and said, you know, with a sniff that the president is dead at 1:00. So I’ve been paying attention to this assassination since about ten or 15 minutes after it happened. I also had been in Ruby’s Club. I knew about Dallas and partied around in there as a college kid. I knew who was running Dallas. I knew about the Citizens Charter Commission. I knew about Earl Campbell, who was the mayor of Dallas at that time, and whose brother Charles Campbell had been fired as a deputy director of the CIA by President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

And anyway, I have really tracked this story as a journalist for, as I said, for 52 years. And Mr. Proctor, I want to tell you what a wonderful piece of investigation that you have done. This is the kind of in-depth and meticulous investigation that should have been done about the assassination of our president. But it was not. In fact, it was the most shoddy, slipshod thing right from the autopsy all the way through these bungled investigations. What I want to tell you is there weren’t just fingerprints of intelligence work around Lee Harvey Oswald. There are huge handprints. Let me just hit a few high points.

 

Number one, the House Assassinations Committee determined that there was a201 file within the CIA, which they had denied previously. This is an employee file. Now, they tried to brush that off and say, well, yeah, yeah, we finally found that. But there’s only a few newspaper clippings in it, nothing of any real importance. And yet four or five people, including Vincent Marchetti and other former CIA people, said if there’s a201 file, he worked for the CIA. John Newman is a very, very credible and honored military historian who wrote a whole book called Oswald and the CIA. And what he determined and proved through internal CIA message traffic, you know, all the little routing numbers in the to who’s and the from whose is that? And this was his conclusion. Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, was actively being used by the CIA prior to the assassination.

Now, the key question there is and and this is what Mr. Brock brought up, was he being used and unwittingly or did he know he was being used? And I submit that he knew exactly what he was doing. The best of my knowledge, I could go on and on, but I know it’s been a long night, y’all. Y’all don’t want to sit here all night. So Lee Oswald is a young man, was very patriotic. His favorite TV show was I Led three Lives for the FBI.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:02:51] The story of Herbert Philbrick, who posed as a communist but was actually working for the FBI was a big show in the fifties. I remember watching that as a kid, and I thought so too. I thought, Boy, that’d be cool. You know, this is an early day. James Bond, when he was 16, he enlisted in the Marines, got in the Marines for a short period of time, and then they found out he was under age, so they kicked him back out. So according to his mother, who I spent many hours with, Marguerite over in Fort Worth, living near Stripling High Junior High School, she said that for the next year, Lee studiously studied the Marine Corps manual, and by the next year he’s able to go in and join the Marines. Now, while he’s in the Marines, he goes through a certain amount of training and then apparently he’s picked up by the Office of Naval Intelligence. The Marines, as you probably know, is a branch of the Navy. Then they ended up sending him to Japan, where he worked as a radar operator handling flights of the then super secret U-2 spy plane. And he had a top secret security clearance. Now, you don’t let scumbags, you know, have your top secret security clearance. And then also, while he was there, he was known to frequent a place called the Queen B, which was a honky tonk there in Tokyo. But it was mostly a hangout for officers and for the pilots of the U-2s.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:04:16] And it was a very expensive club. You know, at night there, it cost you at least $100 and $100 in 1960. In 1959, 60 was a lot of money. And we know, according to the records that he was sending most of his paychecks home to his mother to support her. So where did he get the money to hang out at these places? He also told his roommates at that time that he was in contact with communist agents. So he was already working in intelligence. And then he goes to Nags Head for this illusionary warfare training where they not only were grooming only people to go into Russia and try to be double agents, they were also dealing with by 1959, the Castro anti Castro people and trying to drum up support against Castro and Mr. Proctor. Just last night I was on the phone with Tosh Plumley and he reiterated that, yes, he met Oswald there at this intelligence training at Nags Head. Now, as far as the story of John DeHart, he said that he knew John DeHart, that he was associated with the training at Nags Head, along with Tracy Barnes, CIA and and Howard Hunt, who was also connected to the anti-Castro Cubans and also there at Nags Head. Now, this gets into the war against Castro, which, you know, we actually were supplying. In fact, Tosh Plumley at the ripe old age of 17, actually was under age. But he got into the military.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:05:47] They trained him as a pilot. He was flying with the 49th Armored Division with its its HQ in Dallas. And initially he was flying arms and ammunition to Castro. And this is true, we don’t remember this much. But before Castro won in Cuba, he was the big hero. He was in Life magazine and he was fighting the evil dictator, Batista. And I remember when I was in high school in the fifties, you know, has young kids, young boys do, We thought, hey, why don’t we skip school and go down to Cuba and fight with Castro against the evil dictator, Batista? And it was only after Castro took over and he threw the Mafia off the island, he nationalized the United Fruit, who, by the way, the lawyer was. Allen Dulles was one of the top lawyers for United Fruit that all of a sudden corporate America got mad at him and decided he must be a communist. And we you know, we’ve had that problem with Cuba ever since. So then we turned against him. And so then now Tosh Plumley has the CIA contract pilot, was flying arms and ammunition to the Bay of Pigs invasion to the anti-Castro Cubans in Cuba. And I could go on and on. He even flew a reconnaissance mission just prior to the Bay of Pigs. By the way, I just want to mention that the Bay of Pigs was codename Operation Zapata. And the reason I mentioned that is because George Herbert Walker Bush’s oil company was Zapata drilling and the two ships that were damaged hauling supplies to the Bay of Pigs invasion with the Houston and the Barbara and the day after the assassination.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:07:33] In fact, there is an FBI report talking about the reaction of the anti-Castro Cubans to the Kennedy assassination. And they said this information was provided by Mr. George Bush of the CIA. And if you and I don’t know about you people, but I remember when our unelected president, Gerald Ford, named George Bush a Texas oil man to head the CIA. I went, what? Where do they go? Get some Texas oil man to head our top intelligence agency? So I did a little digging. I found out that, number one, his dad, Prescott Bush, as a very powerful senator from Connecticut, was very critical in helping to form the CIA. And then we see this idea that, again, some of the people flying arms and ammunition for the Bay of Pigs said they were using oil companies as fronts, and one of them was Zapata drilling of Midland Odessa. George Herbert Walker Bush is oil company. So we can see this thread going all the way through there. Quickly, another couple of items about Oswald. When he was arrested, he had on his person a little small mini miniature camera, generally known as a spy camera. The FBI came down to the Dallas police and talked to the two detectives who had discovered this among his belongings and tried to get them to change their report, to read that this was a mini light meter, but they wouldn’t do it.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:08:55] And they said, we know a camera when we see one, so they wouldn’t change it. Why? The problem with the camera? Well, because our old Goltz, my counterpart, reporter for the Dallas Morning News, did a great job investigating and found out that Oswald’s camera has a five digit serial number. And when he checked with Knox Corporation, they said that all the cameras commercially available in the United States at that time carried a six digit serial number. So in other words, he got the spy camera somehow other than commercially buying it at a store. You got the 201 file, you got the camera he wrote while he was working at Jagger Stovall in Dallas, He mentioned to one of his friends, if you knew anything about micro dots, most of y’all probably don’t know about micro dots. But microdot is a spy technique where you take documents and you can reduce it down to the point of a little bitty dot. Like a period on the end of a sentence. You can stick it in a book. And that’s how Pi spies pass information back and forth. How does he know about all that? But I guess the clincher is, is that, like I said, I spent a long time with his mother and his mother from the very day of the assassination until the day she died and on multiple occasions told me my son worked for the United States government.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:10:11] She knew that she knew it. But of course, at the time that just sounded so crazy that it was really easy to say, Well, she’s just crazy. She’s just crazy. Don’t pay any attention to her. So there we go. Oswald was, as John Newman found out, was being used operationally by the CIA. Now, once you understand that the top levels of the United States government were involved in this assassination, then I hope everything else starts to become clear. The botched autopsy, the controversy over the medical evidence, the duplicate documents that have been found in the files, the controversies, the the charges and countercharges, claims and counterclaims claims. Because let me tell you, folks, here’s what it was. John J. Mccloy, the very powerful New York banker who sat on the Warren Commission and his protege was Allen Dulles. And these two men pretty well ran the Warren Commission and John J. Mccloy, early in the investigation of the Warren Commission, stated, and it’s there in the record, he said it was of the utmost importance that we convince the world that the United States is not just a banana republic where the government can be changed by conspiracy. But I’m sorry to tell you, folks, I hate to bust your bubble, but we’re just a banana republic. And our government was changed in 1963. And as we all can look back now and see, not for the better. And I’m sorry to have taken up so much of your time.

Moderator. : [01:11:40] Oh, okay. Sure. Oh. And why in the world did this Raleigh call be neglected for so many years? Was it lack of a good investigation or they didn’t care or they didn’t didn’t want us to know?

Dr. Proctor: [01:12:01] Well, my sense is that we did. I mean, that’s what I was doing in 1980. Did anybody really want to hear about it? Well, apparently not, because the House Assassinations Committee had just finished a year and a half’s worth of research. And I’m finding more and more as they as they slowly trickle out. The declassified documents from the House Assassinations Committee in the National Archives, I see more and more of what they did and who they talk to and how they got their information. But you can look high and low and even in every microdot you can find in the final report of the House Assassinations Committee on the Kennedy side, and you won’t hear or find the name John Hurt or Alveda Tree or anybody. And so we tried and they tried, but because they felt it was just unanswerable, rather than saying that, they just let it go.

Jim Marrs: [01:12:54] Let me add one quick thing. Number one, I’ve already backed up what Mr. Proctor said about Tosh Plumley, because like I said, I talked to him last night and he still says the same thing about meeting Oswald at Nags Head, but also in about in the early nineties I had a driving trip to Florida with Tosh and we drove all around. Oh, that was something else. He even took me to Alpha 66 headquarters in Miami, and I was a little bit anxious because, I mean, these guys, you know, they’re key. As soon as look at you. And they were rough. Tough. Number one, they greeted him, Tosh, like an old buddy. The older guys did. Now, the younger guys are going like. Who are you?  But the old guys are going, Oh, yeah. So, see, they remembered him from the time he was flying arms and ammunition for the CIA. But what I wanted to say was I actually met Vinciana. Jonah, and he made me. He. He said, this is off the record. So he got me to promise that I wouldn’t say anything. But privately he told me, “Yes, it’s Maurice Bishop.”

Moderator: [01:14:01] Yeah. And I should say not just because he said a very nice thing about my work, But I would say if you have not read CROSSFIRE, march out of here and find it. And if you can’t find it, demand it, because this is one of the key documents that has come through with the researchers. And you need to know about what this man has to say.

Jim Marsh: Thank you, Beverly.

Moderator: [01:14:23] Tell us who. I’m going to take some questions from the audience. But tell us one last thing. Tell us who Tosh was flying to Dallas the day of the assassination.

Jim Marrs: [01:14:34] This is another wild story. But like I said, he took me to Florida. We went to this place. They were they were these contract pilots for the CIA. And keep in mind, I doubt you’d ever find a employment farm with the CIA for Tosh Plumlee. They just don’t do it like that. And like Oswald Tosh, these are called assets and they have cutouts and they have front companies, They have all kinds of ways of messing it up. And then but I also want to add quickly one thing, you’ve got people like Tosh, you got people who have tried to speak out, you’ve got Beverly, you’ve got all these people. Now they say one thing, the government says something else. Do we really trust the government? Let’s think about it. Light at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam. Read my lips. No new taxes. I’m not a crook. Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I’m sorry, folks, I size is contained. Right? Right. Oh, how about this one? No boots on the ground in Syria. Okay, See, I can’t. I don’t get it. If I was President Obama and I sent troops into Syria after saying that, I would’ve ordered them to take off their boots. But I’m sorry to tell you, but the federal government of the United States, if that was an individual, none of you, none of them had me, we wouldn’t have anything to do with them because they are a convicted congenital liar.

Moderator: [01:16:01] Well, tell us who he was flying into Dallas that day.

Jim Marrs: [01:16:03] Och, Tosh took me to Loxahatchee, Florida, where the flight originated. And this was a wild story. He said that they were would warehouse in this county work farm, prison prison there in Florida and that they would shower or clean up, shave, rest, sleep and then get up and go out, get an airplane, take off and do more missions for the CIA. That sounds incredible. Well, he took me there. Sure enough, it was closed up at the time I got there. But here’s the here’s the little prison. Here’s the airstrip right beside it. And in fact, he gave me the name of one of the wardens there at the prison, and I managed to get hold of him. And I said, Is it true that you all had some federal prisoners? And he said, Yeah. He said, Yeah, we did. We had a contract. The county had a contract with the federal government to have some prisoners there. He says, You know, it’s kind of funny. They kind of came and went. So he verified all of this. Now what Tom is talking about is, is according to Tosh, he was ordered to fly a mission. They took off from Loxahatchee, they went to New Orleans, they landed. And in New Orleans they picked up some people, one of whom he recognized as a Colonel Ralston, because he had flown him around the Caribbean and he was part of Jim Wave the the secret war against Castro.

Jim Marrs: [01:17:19] But in later years, he was shocked and amazed to find out that Colonel Ralston was none other than Mafia chief Johnny Roselli. And he flew Roselli into Dallas the morning of the assassination. They were to land at Redbird Airport. But for those of you who are around here at the time, you realize that morning it was storming, it was rainy or very overcast. And so Redbird was socked in. So they landed in Garland instead. And he said that’s where Johnny Roselli got out. And he also said that he later they flew to Redbird as the day cleared up and that the pilot, Rojas, said, “Hey, let’s go down to do the downtown and watch what happens.” He says, okay. So he went with them. They were standing on the south side of Dealey Plaza. He said that he was told they were with an abort team, a team that was sent into Dallas to try to stop an assassination attempt. But while they were standing there, they heard the shots go off. They saw them the presidential limousine streak off, and they realized something very wrong had happened. And so they turned around and ran off and left. But according to Tosh, there were multiple gunshots and it was an ambush.

Moderator: [01:18:36] Questions from the audience. I’m going to work this way. Let me work front and backwards. That way, I don’t have to walk so much.

Question: [01:18:49] I read somewhere that. Maybe LBJ had something to do with it. What do you guys think?

Jim Marrs: [01:18:56] You want to take that? Shoot him (pointing at Dr. Proctor)

Dr. Proctor: [01:19:02] I know I’m in the state that gave rise to Lyndon Johnson and a lot of people who really admire him. He’s also the only president I ever shook hands with. I was very young at the time, and he was very tall at the time. But I met him at a Democratic rally in Raleigh.

The evidence. This is me speaking. This is my opinion. The evidence to me that he was involved in creating the conspiracy is thin. I’ve read books where people have said that. I know that there were meetings of all these business tycoons and that sort of thing, but they probably would be meeting anyway. Hard evidence I don’t see.

In terms of setting up the Warren Commission and giving them their target to basically convict the lone nut. I think it was absolutely complicit. I think that’s how he got Warren to agree to do the chairmanship of the commission in the first place. But right in the middle is the gray area, and that is, if he didn’t actually help plan the assassination, did he know about it ahead of time? And I part ways with a good number of people that I know in saying I believe he did. I believe there’s more than enough information. And I’ve talked to his former mistress, who I’m sure you’ve spent a lot of time, Madeleine, a lot. She is absolutely convinced because of comments that he made to her about “he wasn’t going to have to worry about those damn Kennedys anymore.”

Jim Marrs: [01:20:29] That’s true. I will be the first to admit that I don’t believe we’re ever going to come up with hard evidence to convict Johnson of planning or even orchestrating the assassination.

Although, like Mr. Proctor, my personal opinion is I think he had to know something, because, number one, common sense tell you, you don’t kill the president of the United States unless you’re assured that his successor isn’t going to come after you.

But I’ll also say this: In Texas, we have executed people as accessories after the fact. Now, this is a legal term. And in these cases of murder, it shows the facts of the case show that they didn’t kill anybody, but they knew about it. They hid the gun, they drove dhe car, they helped cover up the crime. And in Texas, in fact, actually, in our entire legal system, if you’re an accessory after the fact, you’re considered as guilty as the person that pulled the trigger. So I want to tell you all with it unequivocally that the two men who are absolutely guilty as accessories after the fact in the Kennedy assassination are J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon B. Johnson.

Moderator: [01:21:33] Next question.

Audience Member: Uh, Jim, this is not a question. I just read your book. Population Control. About two months ago. And I wish everybody in here would get a copy of it and read it. It’s fantastic.

Jim Marrs: [01:21:51] Well, thank you very much. I wish they would, too, because the Kennedy assassination is one thing, and I’ve written about a number of conspiracies and a number of books on various topics. Some of you might really like my arise of the Fourth Reich, but what this gentleman is talking about is in my latest book, Population Control, the the the subject line says How corporate owners are killing us. And you need to read it to find out what they’re putting in your food, your water, your air that are toxic, that are dangerous. And if you have any concern about your own health and the health of your loved ones, you really need to find out what they’re doing to you.

Audience Member: [01:22:32] The two men in the switchboard room at the Dallas Police Department, were they federal or local officers?

Dr. Proctor: [01:22:39] Well, we don’t know. We don’t have any idea. Mrs. Sweeny said she thought that they were not homicide people because she knew all the people in the homicide department and they were dressed in suits, not in uniforms. We don’t know how they introduced themselves to her, probably the Secret Service or FBI. But that’s just alphabet soup for some people. And actually, Mrs. Treon never reports having learned who they were. So it’s not in her affidavit.

Audience Member: [01:23:06] What I find interesting is nobody in all the research I’ve looked at, no one’s acknowledged who their names were. Nobody’s acknowledged their existence. Nobody’s ever acknowledged that they were actually there. Yeah, Yeah, except. Except Mrs. Swinney and Mrs. Treon.

Dr. Proctor: [01:23:22] Captain Will Fritz was asked by the House Assassination Committee in a document I literally have just found at the National Archives. He was asked, did he order those two people to go down or up and monitor the call? And he says, “Well, I don’t remember, but it’s possible I did.” And so we’ll take that as a non-denial denial.

And let me just say about the affidavit, I’m really that that, to me, is a cornerstone in this little small thing. In the larger scheme of things, it’s maybe not that important, but in this one small area, the affidavit is key. So what I have done on my website and I just I don’t make any money off this so you can go there and all that. But on that website I have reproduced the contents of every single document that I have found in the National Archives. And included in that is the affidavit as it was originally written, and then with her, Mrs. Trojan’s corrections and additions. So you can see in one place exactly where the differences were. And I commend that to you because it really is interesting.

http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

Jim Marrs [01:24:26] Can I add something? Let me quickly add here something else you all need to know is that at the time of the assassination, there were no federal laws about assassination of the president of the United States. This technically, legally was a Texas homicide. And yet against the law, they cursing, showing, displaying weapons illegally, took Kennedy’s body, whisk it out of Parkland Hospital, put it on Air Force One, and whisk it up to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where they had a very, very incomplete and atrocious autopsy. And what most people don’t realise, too, is that that very night on orders of Cliff Carter, Lyndon Johnson’s right hand man, they pressured the Dallas police into turning over all of their evidence in the case to the FBI, and they hauled it out about midnight. And so the whole next day, all day Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day Monday, the FBI had sold proprietorship over all of the evidence in the case, much to the chagrin of Captain Will Fritz, who was the homicide captain in Dallas, who legally was in charge of this case. And he complained. He said, “How can I investigate this case if you take all my evidence away?: And by the way, on Saturday, the 23rd of November, in a document signed by J.A. Hoover himself, it said there were no usable fingerprints found on the rifle, the clip of the rifle or even the inner parts of the rifle.

On Sunday, that rifle was sent back to Dallas. And on Monday morning, FBI agents Harrison and Drane carried it to Miller Funeral Home in Fort Worth, where they were preparing Oswald’s body for burial. The funeral home director was Paul Rudy, who became a very good friend of mine, as I was the Fort Worth Star-Telegram police reporter. And at that time they had the the ambulance contract. And so all the crimes and the knifings and shootings, I had to deal a lot with Grady. He told me back then and he passed away a couple of years ago. But right up to this current day, he has stated publicly that he was there when the FBI put Oswald’s dead hand on the rifle. And it was that evening that Henry Wade announced to the media, Have I mentioned we found his fingerprints on the rifle. Now, I ask you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you have convicted somebody on that?

Audience Member: [01:26:52] Yes. Who do you think, in fact, orchestrated the assassination? And do you think that we will ever find out the truth?

Dr. Proctor: [01:27:04] I’m as interested to hear what Jim has to say as you are. But let me just say very quickly, those are the two most asked questions that I get and probably any of the researchers get. The first one, I don’t speculate anymore. Mark Lane told me that a long time ago, He says, because even if you say, “Well, I think and this is just an opinion, they’ll go away and say, Well, Grover said to us and so,” and I found that that’s actually the case, so I won’t do that.

But the second question I find a lot more interesting Will we ever find the answer? And my sense is not ever having written a book, I can say this. Who’s to say we don’t already know? Who’s to say that somebody’s one of those people like Jim who have written these incredibly wonderful books, exhaustive and very thorough, hasn’t asked the right questions, interviewed the right people, come to the right conclusions, and written it up in a way that is completely or 95% correct.

Well, how would we ever know?

Because it sits in this library of Kennedy books that stretches probably all the way around this room and beyond. And the press has abrogated their responsibility for deciding, you know, giving their estimates about the veracity of this one and the scholarship of that one and the, you know, the terrible writing of this one and all that. Plus, they have abrogated their responsibility for doing their research.

It was the press, let’s not forget, that broke Watergate. They have decided not to do this in the Kennedy assassination. And I don’t know why.

Jim Marrs: [01:28:33] And I concur. And like I said, I’ve been a journalist for 50 years. I dedicated myself to being a journalist in the late fifties, been and ever since. And I’m here to tell you openly, I’m ashamed of my profession because there’s so much information out there that has not been presented to the public.

Why is that? There’s various reasons. A lot of it’s inertia. A lot of it’s just ineptitude, a lot of it’s laziness.

But then there’s also, as was determined through the Church Committee and other congressional committees, there has been an infiltration of the major news media in this country by the CIA and by other NSA and by other government alphabet agencies.

It’s really terrible. Now, Mr. Proctor is absolutely correct. It doesn’t matter what we say, somebody’s going to say, “Well, he said this,” you know, and I respect him for that

I’m just dumb enough and I’m tired enough of this whole thing. I’m going to tell you what I think happened. Okay. This thing is multi leveled. All right?

I think at the very top, you’re going to find the Rockefellers, you’re going to find the Rothschilds, you’re going to find the international banking families. You’ll never be able to reach them.

David Rockefeller was publishing full page ads in The New York Times blasting Kennedy’s economic policies. So he obviously wanted him out of there. And these bankers are the ones that really run the country. Now, below them, you find Allen Dulles and you find McCord of the CIA. Helms and these guys and they all let’s face it, they represent Wall Street. And when Wall Street decided that Kennedy was a threat and Kennedy wasn’t doing right and we could go through the whole list, he was not going to send combat troops to Vietnam. No Vietnam War. He was trying to seek reimbursement with Castro, something that they didn’t want. He had negotiated with the Soviets and ending the missile crisis instead of going to war, which they wanted to do. He was threatening to take away the oil depletion allowance to the Texas oil men. He was trying to remove the power of the Federal Reserve in the summer of 63, issued $4.2 billion in silver-backed red ink, $5 notes – United States notes – not Federal Reserve notes. This is money we don’t have to pay interest on.

That’s very critical. In fact, the very first assassination attempt in US history was against Andrew Jackson. What was he doing? He did away with the International Bankers First National Bank of America.

So he (Kennedy) and angered all these people. Now, once that once that consensus was reached at that level that something had to be done about Kennedy, then it came down to, I think, Operation Mongoose. This was the secret war against Castro, headed by General Edward Lansdale, who had a big record. In fact, there was a book about him in a movie called The Ugly American. He was proficient at assassinating foreign leaders, and overthrowing governments. So. Well, we had a deal with Khrushchev over Castro, and he was proficient. They had everything. They had organized crime figures. They had anti-Castro Cubans, they had CIA people. And they’re all mixed up in there working against Castro.

And I think what happened was they simply sent their professional mercenary teams to Dallas. And then now, once you understand that this was not a low-level plot, this was a high level plot, then you understand that they have guided the investigation and the pronouncements ever since.

This was a palace revolt, a coup d’état.

Audience Member: [01:32:18] Jim, I just want to say thank you again so much for being here. You’re the very, very best that I know of on the subject of JFK. Well, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, but I mean, Jim’s been doing it longer and we correspond back and forth. But would you share with us, as we’ve discussed by email, when Sarah Hughes, Judge Hughes came upon Air Force One and first approached LBJ, she apologized for not having something with her. Would you share that, please?

Jim Marrs: [01:32:46] Well, I’m going to share this with you, but understand this as an anecdote. I’m sure Mr. Proctor would say you probably shouldn’t even say that if you can’t prove it, and I can’t really prove it. But years ago, I met a deputy sheriff, a former deputy sheriff of Dallas, who said he was on Air Force One. And we all know that that, number one, when Kennedy was pronounced dead, then by the Constitution, automatically Johnson became president.

This thing about swearing in, that’s a formality. He could have done that any time. But he insisted that they stay in Dallas until they could have this formal swearing in. And he’d said at the time that he had been told to do that by then Attorney General Robert Kennedy, Jack’s brother.

Later, Robert Kennedy, said he never told him any such thing. So there we caught Johnson, apparently in a misstatement, if not an outright lie. But according to (Shocking!) Oh, yeah, really? So according to this deputy Sheriff, Sarah Hughes finally showed up at Air Force One and said, Mr. President, speaking to Johnson, said, I am so sorry that I have taken so long. She said, but I just could not find a copy of the swearing-in ceremony. And he said, Johnson, look around at everybody gathered there in the plane. He said, “If any of you speak of this, I’ll call you a liar.” And he reached in his pocket and pulled out a copy of the swearing-in ceremony. I that’s just an anecdote, but I think it smacks of truth.

Audience Member: [01:34:17] My question is about. Charles Harrelson, who shot the judge down in San Antonio. I’d understood that he was arrested with several other fellows. On the railroad track behind the grassy knoll. Can you? Yeah.

Jim Marrs: [01:34:32] There were three what they call bums or hobos or whatever you want to call them, that were actually the the guy, the railroad tower operator saw a train pulling out right after the assassination had happened and had seen three men crawl into one of the boxcars. So he called the police and they had the train stopped and they went and rousted these three guys out of the boxcar and then marched them back through Dealey Plaza, where they were photographed by news photographers, took them to the sheriff’s office. And for years, there was no record of who they were.

Now, in the House Assassinations Committee came along. All of a sudden, these three arrest reports written in the same hand as though the same person had scribbled out these things, suddenly popped up and they were these three guys. And and they contacted them and they said, Oh, yeah. But a lot of the serious researchers doubt that these guys were really the three tramps.

The Tall Tramp bears a striking resemblance to Charles Harrelson. And Harrelson was a young guy at the time, 23 or 24, I think, and he was connected to the Dallas underworld. In fact, his mentor ended up being a -uh – a -uh – the bride grooms for one of Dallas top organized crime guys. So he was connected at that time.

And it is true that when he was finally caught and arrested for the murder of Judge John Wood in San Antonio, a murder for hire, by the way, that he held off the police for several hours, it’s almost sounds like a Saturday Night Live stunt. He pointed a gun to his own head and said, you know, don’t move or I’ll shoot. And he held off cops for a long time. And then he said he was high on cocaine. And at that time, he said, “I’ll clear up the John Wood assassination and also the Kennedy assassination.”

And then while he was being held in jail in Dallas County jail, one of the Dallas reporters went and interviewed him and he said, “Well, listen, I can’t talk right now because my jail cell is bugged,” which turns out to be true a few months later that it came out that, yes, they had tapped his jail cell. He said, “But when I get out of here, he said, I’ll give you the biggest story you ever had. November 22nd, 1963. You remember that?” So he gave a lot of indications that he knew something about the assassination of President John F Kennedy, But of course, he died in prison. But it’s interesting that his son, Woody Harrelson, has done quite well as a Hollywood actor.

Audience Member: [01:37:06] I have a couple of questions. Have you ever seen any photographs of the blood spatter evidence in the car? And have either one of you ever talked to Governor Connally?

Jim Marrs: [01:37:20] I’ve met Governor Connally, but this was afterwards, and I didn’t really get to talk to him much about the assassination. Also was pretty good friends with Jim Wright, former House speaker. Now he was in the several cars back. And it’s interesting, nobody ever talked to him, but he said that he heard the shots and he recognized them as gunshots, as did Connally, because both men were hunters. They were familiar with rifles and rifle sounds. And Jim Wright said that to him, he was on Houston Street heading north, heading towards the School Book Depository Building. And he said the shots came from off over to his left, which is the area of the grassy knoll. So I guess we see why he was never questioned.

In fact, there was a lot of people we all saw the films of the assassination. They remember seeing the couple with their little children lying on the ground. Och, yeah. That was Bill and Gail Neuman. All right. And for years they lived right there, right here in Dallas. You could pick up the phone book and call them, which I did. They were never called to testify to the Warren Commission, and they only got on the record because Jim Garrison in New Orleans subpoenaed him. But I can tell you, he was Bill Newman was on television that afternoon, and the reason they were never called to testify is because both of them fell on their children to protect them because they said the shots were coming right from over their head atop the grassy knoll.

And to your question about blood spatters on the car, that car, when they pulled into Parkland and they took Governor Connally and the president out, they immediately put up the top. They immediately began to wash it down. And then on orders of Johnson, it was sent off and rebuilt and made bulletproof glass was put in it and it was painted black. It had been blue on the day of the assassination and apparently on orders from Johnson. And then, interestingly enough, he would never ride in it.

Dr. Proctor [01:39:19] Just a periphery. If you are interested in that car, you can go to the Henry Ford Museum in Detroit and see it in its current form. But Jim’s absolutely right about the condition inside the car. There is never going to be anything taken from that because the car was completely cleaned and also off limits back here.

Audience Member: [01:39:42] Three part question. One Mr. Proctor. It would seem that the two men that went up into the switchboard area that were listening in to the calls or going to listen in to the call that would make it would seem like they would want that call to go through so they could gather more information. What might find something else that would help them with their case. So it seems odd that they just told her not to put the call through.

Second question for either one of you. I assume that some of the documents that are going to be released in October 2016, I guess, is when some more documents are going to come out. Would some of those be from the House Assassinations Committee and the Church Committee, some of the back room conversations that were taken or testimony that were taken that were never released to the public?

And the third part, Mr. Marsh, the Red Bird situation is interesting to me. I’ve heard a read about the Tosh Plumley part of it and flying the plane in there from Garland, going over to Redbird. And then I’ve also read where Agent Hosty of the FBI said they had tracked a plane that had warmed up its engine set and had been tracked in and arrived in Mexico City at about the approximate time it would have taken to get there. And it went straight to a Cuban airliner that was parked and then it went on to Havana. So any extra you can tell me about what went on at Redbird

Moderator: Before you answer the question. I want you all to say what happened to Roselli?

Jim Marrs: His pieces were found jammed in a can floating in Biscayne Bay prior to just as he was being subpoenaed to talk to the House Assassinations Committee. In fact, the one that got me was there were seven FBI officials, all of whom had been instrumental in the FBI investigation of the Kennedy assassination, who were all subpoenaed to appear before the House Select Committee on assassination.

And they all died within the space of about four months. One fell off a ladder. William Sullivan was mistaken for a deer in his backyard and shot by the son of a New Hampshire state patrolman. Terrible accident. And they all went Och. And Roselli, he’s found murdered. The again, he was being subpoenaed and he was under government protection. But one particular night they all stepped out to get a pizza or something and somebody came in and gunned him down in the basement of his own home before his federal guards could show up again.

And quickly, I think this ties into your first question about who these guys were in the suits. To me, I don’t think there’s any question they were federal officials. I’ve already told you how they took over the case from the very beginning, threatened Dallas police, intimidated and ran all over the place. And I am pretty sure that they were given orders that because they had to allow Oswald to have his phone call. Right. I mean, that’s constitutional law. And so they had orders to go up there to the telephone operators and tell them if a call is going out from Oswald, do not connect it.

And they were also, I’m sure, taking note, mental note or in writing down who that call went to. And as far as Mr. Hurt goes, Yes, I don’t think he was probably active in the CIA at that time. But with that intelligence background, then he was a perfect cutout. Okay? He was the guy who would have taken the call and then called Bishop or somebody who had power over Oswald.

You have to understand if this when you start talking about the investigation, why didn’t they do this? Why didn’t they do that? There was nothing standard about this investigation because it was never conducted at the lower level.

If this was a common street shooting, you know, the detectives and CSI, all of them would be in full mode. They’d get to the bottom of it. They’d track every clue and they’d find out what did it. This happened from the very top, and they closed the doors instead of opening them.

Dr. Proctor: [01:43:48] And to get back to the two men in the in the utility room, I’ve thought many, many hours about that. And here’s what I came up with. And it’s the only thing, it seems to me, to make sense. They, as Jim said, they’ve got to let him at least go through pro forma of making a phone call. But they don’t necessarily have to let the call go through. And in fact, it would probably would have been thought better for it not to go through, because if Oswald was working with anyone outside. And regardless of what they were saying to the public, I think a lot of them had some ideas that maybe that was a reality. If there was some information that was going to be encoded or whatever between the two and that conversation, they didn’t want that to happen. But it was very important for them to find out who it was he wanted to call. So you let the little pantomime go until the point where you know the information than you want. Then you shut it down.

Jim Marrs: [01:44:44] And let’s not forget that if it hadn’t been for Mrs. Tryon who actually was listening and they didn’t know that and she wrote down the message on her own, we would never know about any of this. It just didn’t happen. Just like so much else in this case.

Audience Member: [01:45:01] Dr. Proctor. You made a comment about I believe the agent was Bohlen talking about a Secret Service involvement. Yes. What do you think about the theory that the one of the shots may have come from the Secret Service?

Dr. Proctor: [01:45:18] I’ve not studied that particular area, but Abraham Baldwin was absolutely convinced that there was a former Secret Service man. He hinted that it may well have been a man who was on White House detail, who was discovered to be a real bigot, was the word he used and was let go from the from the Secret Service entirely, not just the White House detail, and went back to his home in Alabama, that he felt that in some way or another, whether it was actually being there and shooting or in the planning and processing or logistics or whatever, that he was involved and he had information to prove that. Now, I have not read Mr. Baldwin’s book. I plan to do that right after I finished Beverly’s. But that’s you know, that’s as much as he told us. And so really, that’s as much as we know in terms of what his thought pattern was. And again, no, no avenues were pursued. I mean, there’s a man standing up on the grassy knoll behind the fence who flashed Secret Service credentials when the Secret Service absolutely said we don’t have anybody up there. So who was flashing Secret Service credentials? Your guess is as good as mine in that.

Jim Marrs: [01:46:36] Speaking of Secret Service. Here’s a real oddity. I don’t know if you know this, Mr. Proctor, but in the Warren Commission volumes, we hear from Thomas J. Kelley, who is with Secret Service, and he’s questioning Oswald. And Oswald kind of belligerently says, “Are you with the FBI?”  Because he knew the FBI was kind of messing him around. And he said, “No, I’m with Secret Service.” And here’s Oswald,whomo we’re told is the killer and whom an hour or so after the assassination gunned down a policeman in South Dallas who just stopped him on the street. You know, he says, oh, well, you know what? As I was leaving the depository, a young man, a crew cut, ran up to me, showed me a book of identification and asked where the telephone was. And I stood there to make sure he got to the telephone. Does that sound like somebody that’s just killed the president? Amazing. Was that question about the Secret Service? Are you referring to the theory that the driver shot Kennedy?

Audience Member: [01:47:34] Well, there’s film where it appears a Secret Service agent, the vehicle does raise up a rifle or a machine.

Jim Marrs: [01:47:41] If you look if you look at the latest edition of my book CROSSFIRE, you’ll find ablow-upp of frame 313. And while it is true that the driver, Greer, did turn and look over his right shoulder at Kennedy as he applied the brakes and the car came to almost a dead halt. His hand is obviously on the wheel and what appears to be a gun in bad generation copies of the spirit of him is actually the sun glinting off of the greased hair of Kellerman, who’s sitting next to him. All you older folks you remember 1963 were all wore hair, grease, right? Brylcreem? Yeah. Or Vitellius. And the sun was glinting off of that. The driver did not shoot Kennedy.

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:20] Absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah.

Audience Member: I have a question about the second number on the call card. That was the dummy number.

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:29] And maybe. Maybe not. Think of this scenario.

Audience Member: [01:48:33] Can I. Can I ask my question?

Dr. Proctor: [01:48:34] I beg your pardon?

Audience Member: [01:48:35] Yes. So Oswald says he wants to call these two numbers now, A, did he have any his telephone book on him or had they taken it by then? And if they’d taken it, that means he had memorized these two numbers. And and I’m wondering. You know. Did he ever. Ah, never call this John Hurt. Never knew him. So he had looked these. He looked to John Hurt’s up in a phone book at some point, not knowing which was which and memorized both of them. Or why? Why? That dummy number’s on there. Okay.

Dr. Proctor: [01:49:13] Sorry to interrupt you, but you and I were thinking in exactly the same, and we got to the same point. Think of it from what Marchetti said to us about the cutout. If somebody was trying to run Oswald as an agent or make him think he was being run, then he would be provided a cutout. Let’s assume for just a minute that John D. Hurt was just someone found in a newspaper article about a former counterintelligence man who is now an alcoholic and making crank calls to the governor of North Carolina. And they say, “Oh, this would be really good, because if if he ever got involved, people would just chalk it up to crank call.”  What you would do is say, if you ever get into a situation where you need my help, call John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina. He (Oswald) memorizes that. He goes away. He (Oswald) thinks, “All right, I bet I can’t do directory assistance or information if I’m ever in jail or if I’m really hung up somewhere. So I better memorize the numbers.”  He calls information. He says there’s two John hurts and he says, probably something rather rude and says, okay, give me both numbers, which I remember back then they would do, though they won’t do that now. And he got both numbers and he memorized them and that’s how they ended up on this. That’s the thing that makes sense, and that’s exactly what I think someone in Oswald’s position would have done. How do you feel about that?

Jim Marrs: [01:50:42] I feel exactly the same somebody who is running. Oswald said. If you get in trouble, call John Hurt in Raleigh. And he didn’t know who he didn’t there were two. Yeah, they didn’t know that. And John D, of course, as I said, has already been implicated with the ONI intelligence training that Nags Head. And so, you know, chances are that as the assassination approached, I want you all to understand something very clearly.

Lee Harvey Oswald was not an innocent person off the street. It was not like he didn’t know anything. He was mixed up in all of this. From his work with the anti-Castro Cubans to the pro-Cubans to the to his leafleting in New Orleans, etc., etc.. Guy Banister and David Ferry, that whole crew. And then in fact, he was handing out pro-Castro literature in Dallas, which doesn’t usually get mentioned. But I talked to Dallas policemen who had started to run him in one time because he’s on a street corner in Dallas handing out pro-Castro literature. And they had a big argument. And he said, “It’s my First Amendment rights”. And the cop finally said, okay, so, you know, he was laying down this legend, as they say, in the CIA, a cover as being pro-Castro. What a perfect patsy for the assassination.

And so I think as the assassination approached, Oswald began to know that something very heavy was going on. In fact, I’m going to tell you, you may disagree with me, Mr. Proctor, but I think Oswald is a low level intelligence asset. I’m not going to call him an agent, and I don’t think he had an employment record as as such with anybody. But he was being used and he was making some money on the side.

Jim Marrs Continues: [01:52:21] And I think that he tried to warn his superiors of what was going to go on. I cannot prove this, but I heard from several Dallas police officers back in the sixties that a week or two before the assassination, the Dallas police had received a letter and they’d filed it away and sent it to their intelligence division that was warning that there was going to be an assassination attempt on Kennedy, and it was signed by Alex J. Heidel. Well, we know that Alex J. Heidel was the pseudonym of Lee Harvey Oswald, but the Dallas police at this time, they probably tried to look up Alex J. Heidel. They couldn’t find any record of him, so they thought, Well, it’s a crank letter and they simply filed it away.

Now, what these policemen also told me back in the sixties was that on the Monday following the assassination, the FBI swarmed all over the Dallas police headquarters. They went through their lockers, they went through the desk drawers, they went through the filing cabinets. They said they even went through the saddlebags on the motorcycle officers motorcycles. And of course, then when they went to look for this letter from A. J.Heidel. it’s not there anymore. So I can’t prove that.

We also know that the night before the assassination, an FBI analyst named William Walter said that a telex came through over the FBI wire, saying that information had been developed, that there may be an assassination attempt on Kennedy in Texas. And then the next day that disappeared again, control from the very top.

But Walter went I believe he testified to the House committee, didn’t he?

 

Dr. Proctor: I think so, yeah.

Jim Marrs: And he he thought. That was such an important telex that he didn’t save the actual telex, but he had all written it all down. He had contemporary notes of this. So I think and then we also know that Lee Harvey Oswald went to FBI headquarters trying to see Hosty, his FBI handler, and had left a note behind. And the only person who actually seems to have read the note was one of the secretaries. And she was vague. She said, “I thought it was some sort of warning.” And of course, the FBI said, well, yeah, he was warning the FBI to not bother my wife again or I’m going to do something bad to the FBI.

But I’ll tell you something, folks, if that were the case, we would have seen that note published on the cover of Life magazine to show what a violence-prone guy was while I was instead Hosty after the assassination, the J. Gordon Shankland, the head agent in Dallas called in Hosty, and he said he said, “Now that Oswald’s dead, there won’t be a trial. I said, get rid of that.” And so Hosty started to fold it up and walk out and he says, “No, I mean, get rid of it. So they tore it up and they flushed it down the toilet.”

Now, does that sound like how’s that for destruction of evidence?

Dr. Proctor: [01:55:01] And one last thought about that. There’s a book out there, and sometime I’d love to know what you think of it, written by a woman named Judith Baker who claims to have been the mistress of Oswald when he was in New Orleans the the summer before the assassination. She claims in that book that at the time, just immediately prior to the assassination, he had called her from Dallas, which was very rare. After he left New Orleans, he made very little contact with her, but he called her to say that he was afraid that something really bad was going to happen and that his sense was that he was being put there as part of a team to try to prevent an assassination.

Now, think about that one for a while. For the man that ends up being the patsy, I can’t again guarantee that that is absolutely accurate. But that’s her report. And after having many conversations or email conversations with Judith, I find her relatively creditable. And I think that the things that she points out in her book called Lee and Me, take that three months and give us a whole new picture of what Lee Oswald was really like and that he was very much the way Jim describes him as down in the dirt and working with the people who were also down in the dirt.

But as a man who loved his country and thought he was doing something good through his intelligence work, right?

Jim Marrs: [01:56:21] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’ve spent a lot of time with Judith. Very Baker. And I tell you, I was very leery of her at first because of the length of time that gone by before she spoke out.

But if you’ll read her book, Me and Lee, she explains in intricate detail. And I do find out that, number one, she’s a very smart lady. Number two, she’s got a photographic memory. I can’t remember what I had for breakfast two days ago, you know, and she can remember all these details from 1963.

Plus she’s got evidence to back it up.

She worked at Riley Coffee Company at the exact same time as Oswald, and she’s got the time cards to prove it.

And they were hired at the same time and they were fired about the same time.

And just for one quick example, she said that her job at Riley was to clock Oswald out every day because his job was twofold. Number one, to work within the Riley, who hired a lot of Cubans to try to find out which ones were the pro-Castro Cubans and which ones were the anti-Castro Cubans. And now if you’re with a bunch of Cubans, how are you going to find out which ones are pro-Castro? You pose as a pro Castro-ite and then one of them will come up and go, “Yeah, you’re right.” And there now you’ve identified the pro Castro. So that was one job. His second job was to sneak out of work, go over to David Perry’s apartment where they were working on a cancer experiment. Initially, she thought they were trying to work on a cure for cancer, but then later she got very turned off because she realized they were actually working on a causative factor, an agent that would create cancer.

Dr. Proctor: [01:57:57] They were, in essence, trying to trying to weaponize cancer, weaponize cancer.

Jim Marrs: [01:58:02] So anyway, so she said and her job was to babysit Oswald while he was at Riley’s cover for him. In fact, she said she was supposed to clock him out every day. Well, okay, He went to work from 8 to 5. And so I went back and looked at his time records and he could clock in in the morning exactly what she expects. 7:59 8:01 You know, a few minutes off now and then because you show up again a little early. A little. But when he clocked out it in the afternoon, 5:00 ching, 5:00 ching 5:00.

ching. punching the time clock. So there’s a lot, and then I went in the Warren Commission and found his immediate supervisor at Riley and read his deposition, and he says, “You know, it’s funny, I never could find him. He never was around and said when I’d catch up with him, I’d say, you know, where have you been?” And he’d  (Oswald) say, “Oh, I’ve just been around”  So it all fits. And I do believe Judith Baker.

Jim Marsh: [01:58:59] I do.

Audience Member: [01:59:00] Too. Do you think any shots came from the sixth floor? And if you do, who do you think it was that was doing the shooting?

Dr. Proctor: [01:59:08] Someone shooting a Mauser and not a man? Liquor Carcano. That’s for one thing.

Jim Marrs: [01:59:13] Yeah.

Dr. Proctor: [01:59:14] I don’t know. No one’s ever been identified. As far as I know. No serious names have been put forward as any of the other shooters.

Jim Marrs: [01:59:21] Wait a minute. But wait a minute. We knew at the time that the FBI went in and fingerprinted all the School Book Depository employees, and needless to say, they made a big deal out of it. They found Lee Harvey Oswald fingerprints on the sixth floor. Big deal. Everybody knew he’d been up there working. They were all moving boxes around. It would have been unusual if you had not found his fingerprints up there. But here’s what’s really fascinating to me is in the late in the nineties, a Texas investigator got hold of the fingerprint cards for Malcolm Mack Wallace, who is a convicted hitman and connected to Lyndon Johnson. In fact, he had been convicted of a murder down in Austin back in the late forties that apparently connected to Johnson. And then Billy Solstice has named Mack Wallace as a hit man who killed some people for Lyndon Johnson and his and they made a 32 point comparison match of these fingerprints on the sixth floor is matching those of Malcolm Mack Wallace.

Now, I think that is extremely weird because Johnson may have been murderous, but he was not stupid. And I don’t think he would have allowed Mack Wallace, a convicted hitman who could be directly connected to him within 50 miles of Dallas if he knew assassination was going to take place.

But what I do think is, is that one of two things. They either maneuvered Mack Wallace into getting up on the sixth floor where they knew he’d leave some fingerprints behind, or better yet, they simply planted the fingerprints of Mike Wallace on the sixth floor so that they had absolute total control over Johnson.

Dr. Proctor: [02:01:04] Yeah, and his mind is more devious than mine. I hadn’t taken it to those last two levels. But yeah, when I saw the Wallace report and the fingerprints, my immediately thought was, Nah, that’s not going to happen. That’s there’s some other explanation or there’s an error here. But now that I hear his response, I like it back here.

Audience Member: [02:01:26] What do you make of the Jim Files confession and the part that the Mafia, as far as he was concerned?

Jim Marrs: [02:01:34] Okay, She’s talking about James Files, who is currently incarcerated in Joliet Prison in Illinois, and he has confessed to being the grassy knoll gunman and tells a pretty good story.

As a long time newsman, I like to pride myself on being a pretty good reporter. And I always thought if I could actually sit in front of files, look him in the eye, watch his body language, I think I’d be able to determine, you know, whether he’s the real deal or whether he’s faking it.

But I got to tell you, I did that. I did go into Joliet Prison. I did sit down across from James file. I looked him in the eye. I watched his body language. I had all the questions lined out for him.

And I’m going to be honest with you, I’m still unsure in my own mind if he’s really telling the absolute truth or not. Now, he is who he says he is. He is he was a hit man. He was connected to Chuck Nicoletti, the head premier, hitman of the Chicago mob. He knew all of the mobsters there from Glen on down, and he was a driver for Nicoletti. I think all that’s very true, especially because one of my good friends is still Zack Shelton, who is an FBI agent now retired, who actually worked in the Chicago office and covered organized crime, and he vouches for the authenticity of James files.

But now when James File said that he was on the grassy knoll and he fired the shot, I don’t know. I’m still I’m still that’s kind of a toss up. I think he heard things. I think he knew a lot of the inside information about the assassination. But has he inserted himself into the story or was he actually the shooter?

And I’m not really certain because there is another candidate for the grassy knoll gunman that I think is rates in my mind higher than James’s files.

And that is a member of the Dallas police force at that time named Roscoe White. His son (Beverly will tell you, and she’ll vouch for this), well, she did tell you –  she said that after the shooting and she was standing around wondering what where she wanted to leave. But she didn’t want to. She was afraid. Somebody thinks that you might want to talk to her. And then she saw this man on the grassy knoll and she didn’t actually know him, but she knew that it was Geneva White’s husband, Roscoe and that he worked for the Dallas police. And so she thought, “I can leave now, right?” Because they know who I am and they know to get hold of me. Beverly, I wanted to ask you just real quick, when you saw him, was he in a suit or he was in his uniform? Did not have a hat.

Beverly: He had slacks and a shirt and a police badge on his shirt, but no hat.

Jim Marrs: [02:04:14] Okay, but he had his badge. Okay, now this goes back to the badge man photograph, which you can find in my book CROSSFIRE. Mary Moorman took a photograph of the Polaroid camera from the south side of Mount St, pointing right at the grassy knoll at just about the exact moment of the fatal headshot, either a little bit split seconds before or split seconds afterwards. And we tested that camera and found out it did have the capability of picking up intricate details in the background and behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. We have blown up an area and to me and to many others, including homicide detectives that I’ve showed it to you, they said that’s a man firing a rifle and he’s in the classic rifle firing position. He does not have a hat. You can see his hairline. You see his eyes and his ear. He’s wearing a dark shirt with a semicircular patch on his left shoulder and a shiny object on his chest, which computer analysis showed was metal. So it appears to be that whoever this was was wearing what appears to be a Dallas police uniform. So my money for the grassy knoll gunman right now is on Roscoe White.

Dr. Proctor: [02:05:20] Yeah. And that’s certainly been one of the major theories out there. And just think about it again logically. I always like to just back up and things and say, does this make sense? If you were going to have someone posted somewhere else, like the grassy knoll or up there between the grassy knoll and the and the pergola, and you wanted people who might have glanced across and seen someone with a rifle not to panic or not to draw the conclusion you don’t want them to draw, put them in a police uniform, because then they’ll say, Oh, they’re protecting the president. Let me go back to what I was doing. So yeah, it makes perfect sense and is borne out by the evidence that Jim talked about.

Audience Member: [02:06:01] Yeah. My question is about the rifle that was found. Did it have Oswald’s prints on it? Can it be tied to Roswell or Oswald or what? The rifle.

Jim Marrs: [02:06:11] Well, I mentioned that earlier about the fact that the next day the FBI said they there were no usable prints found anywhere on the rifle or even the inner parts of the rifle. And then Sunday, it shipped back to Dallas. Monday they take it over to the funeral home. And the funeral home director said they put his dead hand on the gun. And that night, Henry Wade announces, we found his fingerprints on the rifle. Except when you look, it’s actually a partial palm print that was found on the underside of the disassembled barrel of the gun. So I do not call that strong evidence.

Audience Member: [02:06:45] Back here. On the office Tippit’s death. Did  Oswald shoot him or was there a person who ran into a library or elementary school? Or Church. A church. And were the pursuers stopped by the feds?

Jim Marrs: [02:07:09] Here’s somebody that’s either read the material or knows something, because that’s it’s absolutely true. I can tell you unequivocally that Lee Oswald did not shoot off cert. How do I know this? Because he was in the theater at the time. His movements. He left his room in house a little after one. He arrived at the theater. About 10 minutes later, the funeral of the theater Assistant manager Butch Burrows, told me that he was there and that Oswald had bought a ticket, had come in and bought popcorn from him, and then went and moved around in the ground floor. Two other people in the theater at that time, an insurance agent and an 18-year-old that I interviewed was sitting there by himself because he wanted to go see the war movie.

Now picture this. He’s in a 900 seat theater and there’s only about 20 people in it scattered here and there. He’s sitting at the back over to the right by himself. When somebody comes in and squeezes past him and sits in the seat next to him. What’s that? You know. He didn’t say anything.

And the guy next to him didn’t say anything, but he just sat there for a while and finally got up, squeezed past him, went over and sat in the middle section. And then, of course, a little later, the cops came in and this was Lee Harvey Oswald.

What was going on there? He was trying to make his intelligence contact. It’s one of these things where he goes sit down next to the guy, and the guy would say, “The geese fly south, and he’d say, but only in the wintertime”  And they’d have their little secret thing there to say, This is we’ve made contacts.

But he didn’t get any response out of Davis. And so he got up and he moved on. So but the point is, all three of these witnesses place Oswald in the theater at the time the movie feature started, which was ten after one, and the Warren Commission didn’t said Tippit wasn’t shot until about 115 or 120. And they base that on the fact that Benevides got after the shooting and several minutes after the shooting got in the police car and and keyed open the microphone and said, We have an officer down here, send help.

So Oswald was in the theater at the time Tippit was shot. And you’re right, immediately the shooting took place at 10th and Patton. So they started scrambling all the squad cars and there were reports that a man had run from the scene and they saw him ducking into a church near there. Well, the police were coordinating and rounding up and getting ready to raid this church when they get another call saying, no, he sneaked into the Texas theater. So they all rushed to the Texas theater.

And by the way, even before all that, I talked to some people who had been in the South Oak Cliff branch of the Dallas Library, and they said shortly after one that a whole bunch of police came running in and were running up and down, searching through all the stacks of books and everything. And finally one of them was saying, “Well, he’s not here.”

And they all ran out again. So they were they they knew who they were after and they were after him.

Dr. Proctor: [02:10:00] And if you really want more details on this, this goes back to one of the first books I ever read and that was ever written on the assassination. Go back to Mark Lane’s, “Rush to Judgment” and find the section where he interviews Mrs. Aquilla Clemmons, who was an eyewitness to the shooting and to the aftermath of the shooting. And if you want to have the hair on the back of your head, stand up, read that and know I’m not going to tell you tonight because you got to go do your homework.

Moderator: [02:10:26] Beverly will have books for sale and consign them a customized signature . Jim, If you bought books, please sell them. And Grover, did you bring any books?

Dr. Proctor: [02:10:39] No, but I’m going to walk away with two of them.

Moderator: [02:10:41] Okay. We’ll be here for additional minutes for questions and answers. As far as I’m concerned, this is one of the best symposiums on the JFK assassination ever held about John.

NOTES ABOUT THE TRANSCRIPT:

Wade Burleson has made the transcript and all errors in grammar, spelling, and paragraph separation are his alone. It may be easier to listen to the audio and follow the transcript as you listen. https://youtu.be/OsItiPfnzLI